Richard, Duke of York is sent to Burgundy

[VVD0D95]

So, inspired by the thread about two deaths at Bosworth and a conversation with @isabella, I come to you now with a new question.

What if when shit starts kicking off in 1483, after Edward IV dies, instead of going into sanctuary with his sisters and mother, Richard, Duke of York is sent off to Burgundy to be with his aunt Margaret of York with a few trusted retainers, including a brother or two?

It could be that his mother really doesn't trust Richard, Duke of Gloucester and after what he did to her brother, I can't blame her.

So, let's say York is in Burgundy what happens next?

 

[isabella]

Richard of York in Burgundy is a very bad news for Henry Tudor, point. Gloucester and Stillington will think thrice before talking of the alleged wedding between Eleanor Talbot and Edward IV, but they can still decide to use it, after all Dowager Duchess Margaret is still Richard’s sister. The things about you can be sure is who Richard will stay some time in Burgundy and will not sent back unless is totally safe for him or as King at the head of an army if the Yorks somewhere lost England (but his presence in Burgundy make that pretty unrealistic).
The same reasoning is valid also for Edward of Warwick and Margaret of Clarence: if they ever reach their aunt’s court in Burgundy they will stay there safe, unless the York’s lost England or going back in England is totally safe for them... They are Margaret’s own blood and can be useful hostages if needed (naturally without endangering them) so they will stay

 

[VVD0D95]

Richard of York in Burgundy is a very bad news for Henry Tudor, point. Gloucester and Stillington will think thrice before talking of the alleged wedding between Eleanor Talbot and Edward IV, but they can still decide to use it, after all Dowager Duchess Margaret is still Richard’s sister. The things about you can be sure is who Richard will stay some time in Burgundy and will not sent back unless is totally safe for him or as King at the head of an army if the Yorks somewhere lost England (but his presence in Burgundy make that pretty unrealistic).
The same reasoning is valid also for Edward of Warwick and Margaret of Clarence: if they ever reach their aunt’s court in Burgundy they will stay there safe, unless the York’s lost England or going back in England is totally safe for them... They are Margaret’s own blood and can be useful hostages if needed (naturally without endangering them) so they will stay

Hmm interesting, so might Richard of Gloucester actuslly take up the regency for Edward V, or might he suspect that his own neck is in the line in terms of his lands etc and this act as king anyway

 

[isabella]

Hmm interesting, so might Richard of Gloucester actuslly take up the regency for Edward V, or might he suspect that his own neck is in the line in terms of his lands etc and this act as king anyway

The point is who likely Richard was not really in any danger before kidnapping the young Edward V in that way as Dowager Queen Elizabeth clearly had no reason to suspect him or she would have sent her second son in Burgundy (or Brittany) and asked for a big armed escort for her eldest son, the new King from Wales to London...

 

[VVD0D95]

The point is who likely Richard was not really in any danger before kidnapping the young Edward V in that way as Dowager Queen Elizabeth clearly had no reason to suspect him or she would have sent her second son in Burgundy (or Brittany) and asked for a big armed escort for her eldest son, the new King from Wales to London...

Hmm this is true. So, if Richard still takes Edward V the way he did otl, and news gets to Elizabeth that this has happened and her brother is dead, then I can definitely see her sending York to Burgundy for protection. Richard Gloucester gets to London, and finds that one nephew is now missing, and the other one isn't responding to him, then Stillington comes to him with the story about the pre-contract.

 

[VVD0D95]

And once Stillington comes to Richard with his story about the pre-contract, Richard has a decision to make. Does he go with Edward as King and try and repair a damaged relationship, and entice his other nephew back from Burgundy. Or does he go the whole hog and take the throne himself, declaring his nephews and nieces illegitimate.

 

[The Professor]

And once Stillington comes to Richard with his story about the pre-contract, Richard has a decision to make. Does he go with Edward as King and try and repair a damaged relationship, and entice his other nephew back from Burgundy. Or does he go the whole hog and take the throne himself, declaring his nephews and nieces illegitimate.

It all depends on his character.
Is he a schemer aiming for the throne?
Or a loyal servant of the realm trying to avoid anarchy and corruption?
Or one of a number of inbetween roles?

 

[VVD0D95]

It all depends on his character.
Is he a schemer aiming for the throne?
Or a loyal servant of the realm trying to avoid anarchy and corruption?
Or one of a number of inbetween roles?

Hmm, this is very true.

The way I've always read Richard was that when his brother was alive, he was loyal to him, whilst also being ambitious himself. His marriage to Anne Neville seems to me anyway-maybe I've read too much Sharon Penman- to be a mixture of love but also of wanting his own wealth. SOme of his dealings alos suggest he was quite ambitious. So, if his brother dies and then he learns about the pre-contract, and he risks losing part of his wealth due to the death of a member of the Neville family-this was something @FalconHonour had mentioned before- then I could see him thinking maybe becoming King would be for the best.

 

[The Professor]

Hmm, this is very true.

The way I've always read Richard was that when his brother was alive, he was loyal to him, whilst also being ambitious himself. His marriage to Anne Neville seems to me anyway-maybe I've read too much Sharon Penman- to be a mixture of love but also of wanting his own wealth. SOme of his dealings alos suggest he was quite ambitious. So, if his brother dies and then he learns about the pre-contract, and he risks losing part of his wealth due to the death of a member of the Neville family-this was something @FalconHonour had mentioned before- then I could see him thinking maybe becoming King would be for the best.

Well OTL he had control of both male heirs so any doubt in the story is balanced by little risk to his ambitions which leads to him taking the throne.
TTL he only has Edward so there's more risk that he looks openly treasonous.
So whatever character you hold for him I think it looks good for Richard to hold off declaring just yet. For now he's the loyal and legal Lord Protector of the realm and its king (whether Edward or himself).

 

[VVD0D95]

Well OTL he had control of both male heirs so any doubt in the story is balanced by little risk to his ambitions which leads to him taking the throne.
TTL he only has Edward so there's more risk that he looks openly treasonous.
So whatever character you hold for him I think it looks good for Richard to hold off declaring just yet. For now he's the loyal and legal Lord Protector of the realm and its king (whether Edward or himself).

This makes sense, I suppose though he’d keep stillington around as well just in case he needs him. And spend his time trying to get Richard of York badk

 

[The Professor]

This makes sense, I suppose though he’d keep stillington around as well just in case he needs him. And spend his time trying to get Richard of York badk

Indeed.
Charitably it's to uncover potential treason and possible harm to both boys. Uncharitably it's to uncover flaws in the plan and remove opposition.

 

[FalconHonour]

It is true that George Neville's death in May 1483 really shook up Richard's hold on the North of England, so he's going to want to secure that, whatever happens, but that he can do as Protector, if he absolutely has to - look at his father controlling Henry VI in the 1450s and putting an awful lot of offices into the hands of his clique...

I suspect that what Richard might do, if the younger York boy is not around, is delay the coronation of Edward V long enough to secure his hold on the North and maybe even make it hereditary, although that doesn't really seem to have been his nature OTL, and establish himself, rather than the Woodvilles, as the power behind the throne, but I don't see him usurping outright. Of course, if young Edward is clever, he'll ship his Uncle Gloucester north to stir up trouble in the Northern Marches and keep him busy that way...

But Elizabeth did want a large army to come from Ludlow, at least at first. Hastings threatened to leave court and go to Calais if she didn't write and tell her son only to bring a reasonable escort - I believe 2000 was the number they settled on - and she relented. I bet she regretted that, once the news of Stony Stratford came through.

 

[VVD0D95]

Indeed.
Charitably it's to uncover potential treason and possible harm to both boys. Uncharitably it's to uncover flaws in the plan and remove opposition.

Agreed there.

It is true that George Neville's death in May 1483 really shook up Richard's hold on the North of England, so he's going to want to secure that, whatever happens, but that he can do as Protector, if he absolutely has to - look at his father controlling Henry VI in the 1450s and putting an awful lot of offices into the hands of his clique...

I suspect that what Richard might do, if the younger York boy is not around, is delay the coronation of Edward V long enough to secure his hold on the North and maybe even make it hereditary, although that doesn't really seem to have been his nature OTL, and establish himself, rather than the Woodvilles, as the power behind the throne, but I don't see him usurping outright. Of course, if young Edward is clever, he'll ship his Uncle Gloucester north to stir up trouble in the Northern Marches and keep him busy that way...

But Elizabeth did want a large army to come from Ludlow, at least at first. Hastings threatened to leave court and go to Calais if she didn't write and tell her son only to bring a reasonable escort - I believe 2000 was the number they settled on - and she relented. I bet she regretted that, once the news of Stony Stratford came through.

Oooh now that is interesting, I could definitely see him focusing on thay a lot when things calm down Percy is definitely going to be pissed about that.

and on that note, was t Edward V said to be slightly frail for his age. If he does happen to die before he comesod age that’s going to be something

 

[FalconHonour]

Agreed there.

Oooh now that is interesting, I could definitely see him focusing on thay a lot when things calm down Percy is definitely going to be pissed about that.

and on that note, was t Edward V said to be slightly frail for his age. If he does happen to die before he comesod age that’s going to be something

He seems to have been ill with a jaw abscess in the Tower, I know that, but whether he was actually frail is another story. But yes, if he dies before he marries and secures the Succession, we have a whole other kettle of fish... and something is going to have to be done about Henry Tudor. Does Margaret Beaufort's petition for the restoration of Richmond stand ITTL, if it's Edward IV's son that succeeds and not his brother?

 

[VVD0D95]

He seems to have been ill with a jaw abscess in the Tower, I know that, but whether he was actually frail is another story. But yes, if he dies before he marries and secures the Succession, we have a whole other kettle of fish... and something is going to have to be done about Henry Tudor. Does Margaret Beaufort's petition for the restoration of Richmond stand ITTL, if it's Edward IV's son that succeeds and not his brother?

Hmm I think it is possible, Richard as lord protector might see it as beinf in his interest to allow it to keep Beaufort on side

 

[The Professor]

and on that note, was t Edward V said to be slightly frail for his age. If he does happen to die before he comesod age that’s going to be something

It'd also make it more convincing if Stillington's story comes out after. Since it's then less likely that Richard killed Edward to keep power than whoever has Shrewsbury in possession.

 

[VVD0D95]

It'd also make it more convincing if Stillington's story comes out after. Since it's then less likely that Richard killed Edward to keep power than whoever has Shrewsbury in possession.

After Ed kicks it? Hmm interesting

 

[VVD0D95]

So, here's what I was thinking.

Richard, Duke of Gloucester learns of his brother's death, decides to meet his nephew on the way to London. But before that, he meets Wydeville's brother and decides that the man might be about to betray him-his actions suggest Wydeville wasn't particular smart enough to do this but hey ho- RIchard then has the man executed for treason, and rides on meeting his nephew and taking him to London. Elizabeth learns about her brother's arrest and panics. She and the girls go into sanctuary, but she decides Richard, Duke of York would be better protected outside of the Kingdom, and so she sends him to Burgundy accompanied by his half brother, and a few retainers. Gloucester arrives in London with Edward V, to find that his other nephew is gone, and that his sister in law and nieces are in sanctuary. A great embarrassment for him, but now he knows he needs to move ahead, so he tries to forge a relationship with the boy King, and also continues full steam ahead with plans for the coronation.

Edward V is set up in the royal apartments in the Tower, to await his coronation, whilst Richard spends his time trying to get his sister in law to see reason and convince her there is no danger present. Meanwhile, the French King is probably stirring the pot a little, and so, Richard decides for the time being that York is safe in Burgundy with his sister Margaret of York. During all of this, someone comes to Richard telling him that a priest wishes to speak with him, informing him of urgent information that could help protect the Kingdom. Richard is intrigued but decides he will meet with this man after his nephew is crowned King.

 

[isabella]

Robert Stillington is not a simple priest, he is the Bishop of Bath and was a former Chancellor of Edward IV (and a former associate of George of Clarence) but still is possible who Richard decided he do not wished listen to what Clarence’s former associate want tell him before the coronation

 

[VVD0D95]

Robert Stillington is not a simple priest, he is the Bishop of Bath and was a former Chancellor of Edward IV (and a former associate of George of Clarence) but still is possible who Richard decided he do not wished listen to what Clarence’s former associate want tell him before the coronation

Indeed though some of the records IV seen refer to a priest who told Richard about the pre contract