Yes and it wouldn`t improve relationships with the Beauforts. On the other hand the Middleham Nevilles would have less reason to join the Yorkists.
Hmm very true, very true. This could well make the war a lot more interesting
Yes and it wouldn`t improve relationships with the Beauforts. On the other hand the Middleham Nevilles would have less reason to join the Yorkists.
The Earldom of March is possible, unless it was considered desirable to keep the Earl of March as a courtesy title for the heir to the Duchy. Other titles would be the Earl of Rutland. Or they could try to get the Earldom of Cambrige reinstated, though that had no land. An attempt could even be made to re-create the Duchy of Aumale, as a title.So here's what I've concluded so far: Richard and Edmund sons of the Earl of Cambridge are born in 1411. Upon their father's death, Richard becomes the holder of some very wealthy estates though King Henry is wary of giving them to him just yet, the twins are seperated perhaps, Richard being given to the Neville Earl of Salisbury, unsure about who Edmund could be given to, or if he'd be removed from his brother's presence.
Also, is it possible that Edmund might be given the title and lands of the earldom of March?
Yes, without the dispute over the Warwick inheritance, they might very well end up as loyal Lancastrians (assuming such a split even develops; without the Beaufort-York rivalry, York likely feels more contented; on the other hand, more marriages mean more possible inheritance disputes between cousins...).Yes and it wouldn`t improve relationships with the Beauforts. On the other hand the Middleham Nevilles would have less reason to join the Yorkists.
Hmm interesting, what lands did the Duchy of Aumale have?The Earldom of March is possible, unless it was considered desirable to keep the Earl of March as a courtesy title for the heir to the Duchy. Other titles would be the Earl of Rutland. Or they could try to get the Earldom of Cambrige reinstated, though that had no land. An attempt could even be made to re-create the Duchy of Aumale, as a title.
Yes, without the dispute over the Warwick inheritance, they might very well end up as loyal Lancastrians (assuming such a split even develops; without the Beaufort-York rivalry, York likely feels more contented; on the other hand, more marriages mean more possible inheritance disputes between cousins...).
Of course, as "merely" Earls of Salisbury, the Middleham Nevilles are also significantly less important in general.
Yes there is a risk that the Nevilles wouldn't support York without the Beauchamp land dispute. although there was still the Percy-Neville conflict, complete with its own near Red Wedding, which was an important driver of the conflicts of the wars of the Roses. the Nevilles come across as better soldiers, (and marriers), The Percies look better at garnering royal patronage, So I'd guess that the Nevilles would be more likely to align with York.Yes, without the dispute over the Warwick inheritance, they might very well end up as loyal Lancastrians (assuming such a split even develops; without the Beaufort-York rivalry, York likely feels more contented; on the other hand, more marriages mean more possible inheritance disputes between cousins...).
Of course, as "merely" Earls of Salisbury, the Middleham Nevilles are also significantly less important in general.
Hmm interesting, what lands did the Duchy of Aumale have? I think that like the Earldom of Cambridge, there wouldn't have been a lot of land a that came with it. and given that control of of Aumale was about to pass away as well, then there wouldn't have been a lot of value there But titles were a matter of Prestige, they tended to stay within families, even after new creations, of them, and they are much easier to follow than who controlled what land.
Edmund would need a land inheritance, but it is unclear to me from where it would come, nor if the lands were attached to the Earldom of March or if they come from a common patrimony.
Yes there is a risk that the Nevilles wouldn't support York without the Beauchamp land dispute. although there was still the Percy-Neville conflict, complete with its own near Red Wedding, which was an important driver of the conflicts of the wars of the Roses. the Nevilles come across as better soldiers, (and marriers), The Percies look better at garnering royal patronage, So I'd guess that the Nevilles would be more likely to align with York.
It has been proposed the the Wars of the Roses actually started with the Percy-Neville conflict
On the issue of the importance of the Middleham Nevilles, I admit I had Anne Beauchamp marrying 'twin ' Edmund for the excitement of it but I think, given that the Neville look like the English 'Habsburgs' at this time, I suspect that the Kingmaker would have made a valuable match in any event Other reasons for his importance was gaining the Capptaincy of Calais (and keeping it) and his popularity with the people.
The 'tiitles' gained by the Nevilles, Westmoreland, Salisbury and Warwick were as as much or more as a result of their success than as a cause of it, and the Middleham (Beaufort) Branch already had most of the Neville land, and money, even without the Westmoreland title. John and Richard Neville wee also both successful soldiers.
Hmm interesting, what lands did the Duchy of Aumale have? I think that like the Earldom of Cambridge, there wouldn't have been a lot of land a that came with it. and given that control of of Aumale was about to pass away as well, then there wouldn't have been a lot of value there But titles were a matter of Prestige, they tended to stay within families, even after new creations, of them, and they are much easier to follow than who controlled what land.
Edmund would need a land inheritance, but it is unclear to me from where it would come, nor if the lands were attached to the Earldom of March or if they come from a common patrimony.
Hmm true, could be granted something by his cousin the king then? Or inherit something from his fathter? Consiburgh perhaps?
You are totally wrong. Margaret and her family's claim to the throne was tenous, very doubious and was not recognized by the Lancastrian Kings. They were legittimized bastards who still had the surname Beaufort (and not Plantagenets, of Gaunt or of Lancaster) and while they were recognized they were still escluded from the line of succession by Henry IV (who was a Lancaster) and, thing still more important, the Lancasters claimed the throne descended in the male line only and so they were the rightful heirs (and that make the Duke of York the next in line).Margeret Beaufort would be unlikely to marry the Duke of York.
Henry IV was very enthusiastic for Margaret to marry Edmund Tudor precisely, because it reduced the chances of a Yorkist Claim to the Throne.
The Earl of Westmoreland would also have used his oppertunity to betrothe Cecily Neville to the Duke of York. Richard would have to find himself another heiress.
You are totally wrong. Margaret and her family's claim to the throne was tenous, very doubious and was not recognized by the Lancastrian Kings. They were legittimized bastards who still had the surname Beaufort (and not Plantagenets, of Gaunt or of Lancaster) and while they were recognized they were still escluded from the line of succession by Henry IV (who was a Lancaster) and, thing still more important, the Lancasters claimed the throne descended in the male line only and so they were the rightful heirs (and that make the Duke of York the next in line).
Henry VI (and not IV) was enthusiastic for Margaret to marry Edmund Tudorbecause she was one of the richest heiresses of England and he was the older of his trusted, beloved and loyals half-brothers (Edmund and Jasper Tudor were the children of Catherine of Valois, Queen of England and mother of King Henry VI by her second husband Owen Tudor)
King Henry VI granted Margaret Beaufort's guardianship to his Tudor half-brothers after the death of her father and the tutor had the right of decide about the wedding of his ward so if Edmund and Jasper will still have Margaret's guardianship Edmund will marry her (or Jasper if his brother die before marrying her and consumate the wedding) and I do not see any reason for change that. So if Richard of York had a twin brother the older will marry Cecily Neville without any doubt and for the other I think who Anne Beauchamp is a possibility (but she was not borne as an heiress) while Margaret Beaufort is really unlikely