Ribbentrop, race, and Operation Barbarossa

You're basically right, but only to a point.
Teutonic Knights were a religious order (even if one of sort), and their effort was not to exterminate for the joy of bloodlust, but rather to impose Christan faith (and quite incidentally, their rule :D).
What I am trying to say here is that the "original" lebensraum concept was something like the colonialist mentality in the 1800 Europe: we are going to conquer them for their own sake, to give them civilization.
"Polish Economy" was another way of saying "Hut-living Savages".
This did not rule out extermination, but only as a (limited) tactic to ensure conquest, rather than as an aim
The "extermination" policy as an aim came later, around 1942

Ah, I see. Yes, I think you're right on that. Although, I think the Teutonoc Knights followers and supporters probably had a slightly less religious motive.

I seem to remember that at some point in 1940-41 there was a plan to move all the European Jews to Madagascar, to a) cleanse Europe and b) create a new foreign market for German goods (although why Jews dumped on an admittedly large island in the Indian Ocean would buy German goods is another matter!)
 
Ah, I see. Yes, I think you're right on that. Although, I think the Teutonoc Knights followers and supporters probably had a slightly less religious motive.

I seem to remember that at some point in 1940-41 there was a plan to move all the European Jews to Madagascar, to a) cleanse Europe and b) create a new foreign market for German goods (although why Jews dumped on an admittedly large island in the Indian Ocean would buy German goods is another matter!)

Teutonic Knights - that was the usual expansionist move that pretty much any state did in the time. Covering the actual desire for more territory and more subjects by religious language was usual in the time.

Madagascar plan was obviously unworkable. As to creating a market - I doubt very much it was any kind of motive, but I guess, if given the choice of buying German goods or not buying anything and starving to death, the choice is easy.

As to the stuff you wrote about "German national character" and hating the Poles/Slavs, I hope for you it came just from lack of knowledge.
 
Koch ran the Ukraine with an Iron fist... lots of rapes and murders of people who would have generally been friendly to the Germans

The Einsatzgruppen where a systematic part of the plan organized by the SS for Jew extermination... something Ribbentrop objected to for fear of negative press (not out of any peronal concerns) Todt had his objections too for economic reasons... he wanted to turn everyone and anyone into slave laborers instead of just killing them

the architect of the Einsatzgruppen where Steiner Heydrich and Himmler (they set them up before in the invasion of Poland... it is not commonly known that the Einsatzgruppen actually worked in Poland in 1939

You would definently need Hess to stay around because Todt was a buddy of his. The group that would be for a less harsh occupation policy would revolve around Ribbentrop, Todt, Hess perhaps even Goering if he can be convinced that it will be a way to embarass and reduce the influence of Himmler. It would help them if they could co-opt major members of the army but this is rather unlikely...non of the big players in the German high command except for Raeder and Donitz had any serious objection to Barbarossa itself let alone the follow on policies which where ruthless enforced by the generals (Reichenau order and its unspoken equivilents)

A lot of the Eastern Field Marshals where Prussian who loved the idea of Prussian expansion, and had an air of superiority about them. Manstein, Rundstead, Guderian and their kind loved the idea of thrashing the Russians. The younger generals perhaps from Western Germany might not have been so enthralled with Lebensraum. Rommel is the only person who ever went on the record as objecting to the campaign in Russia... but of course we know of his activities at the time (given the Africa Korps in Spring 1941) so we can't say he necessarily felt this way out of the goodness of his Swabian heart

Very good assessment of the specific players who would have been involved in determining policy. Anyone else want to dispute/reinforce this? I'm thinking about going with the Ribbentrop-Todt-Hess-Goering idea + pragmatic generals such as Manstein to implement a different policy where they tried to get collaborators from the local population instead. So, Axis puppets Ukraine, Belarus, Baltic states, and maybe a larger Lokot Autonomy.
 
Teutonic Knights - that was the usual expansionist move that pretty much any state did in the time. Covering the actual desire for more territory and more subjects by religious language was usual in the time.

Madagascar plan was obviously unworkable. As to creating a market - I doubt very much it was any kind of motive, but I guess, if given the choice of buying German goods or not buying anything and starving to death, the choice is easy.

Fair points.

As to the stuff you wrote about "German national character" and hating the Poles/Slavs, I hope for you it came just from lack of knowledge.
Yes, because no-one in Germany agreed with the Nazis' racist propaganda and only the SS and Gestapo did bad things in Russia and Yugoslavia! Yeah, right.

You do know that von Stauffenberg, the July 20 bomber, was on record as saying "Poles are dirty and as low as Jews"?

During the war, the Western Allies put most of the senior German commanders that they captured in a big house in England called Trent Park. Their rooms were bugged by British Intelligence and everything that was recorded was written down. Very few of the Germans come out with any real credit. Some of them used to go and watch the mass executions. One of them spent all his time talking about the naked Jewish girls!

The Germans of today are among the most liberal and democratic people in Europe. They often put us Brits to shame! But that doesn't mean their ancestors were as nice!
 
Yes, because no-one in Germany agreed with the Nazis' racist propaganda and only the SS and Gestapo did bad things in Russia and Yugoslavia! Yeah, right.

Yes, of course being submitted to a torrent of increasingly radicalizing propaganda for ten years and believing some of it is the same as some millennia-old "national character".

You do know that von Stauffenberg, the July 20 bomber, was on record as saying "Poles are dirty and as low as Jews"?

Was it before or after that British nobleman who complained that the Nazis give "good old-fashioned antisemitism" a bad name?

Basically, nobody doubts that Nazism has coopted the collaboration of significant part of the German population and knowing aquiescence of most of the rest, or that the Wehrmacht was complicit in the massive war crimes esp. in the East. That's not under discussion. The point is that you either assign people some mythical, unchanging "national character" or you don't.
 
Was it before or after that British nobleman who complained that the Nazis give "good old-fashioned antisemitism" a bad name?

All the major powers were extremely racist to just about everyone else. I think as societies we have basically blocked out jsut how racist our ancestors were, in order to function. And anti-semitism was rife throughout Europe (pogroms, Drefus affair). The British Army was notorious for it. It's just that the Germans pushed their prejudices to the extreme.

Basically, nobody doubts that Nazism has coopted the collaboration of significant part of the German population and knowing aquiescence of most of the rest, or that the Wehrmacht was complicit in the massive war crimes esp. in the East. That's not under discussion.
That's my problem. I think a couple of people on this forum do doubt that (or don't care; they just like the uniforms). Constructing an ATL where Germany wins WW2 is an interesting exercise, and I'd be happy to part in one. Creating ATLs where Germany kicks the crap out of everyone for 4 or 5 years, then basically says 'OK, we're gonna stop, now. Sorry about all that stuff with the Jews. And the Slavs. And all the hostages we shot. And all those neutral countries we invaded' and then everone presses the reset button is something else. Especially since I've seen more of the latter than the former.

I appreciate that some of my criticisms are OTT. But I just find the motives behind some of these ATLs really suspect.

BTW, the policies towards the East really dont matter. Because the Soviets burnt all the crops as they retreated. There were huge famines in the occupied areas. Any vassal states the Germans created would have collapsed. That's one reason so many people joined the partisans; they had what was left of the foodstocks.
 
Last edited:

kenmac

Banned
Fair points.

Yes, because no-one in Germany agreed with the Nazis' racist propaganda and only the SS and Gestapo did bad things in Russia and Yugoslavia! Yeah, right.

You do know that von Stauffenberg, the July 20 bomber, was on record as saying "Poles are dirty and as low as Jews"?

During the war, the Western Allies put most of the senior German commanders that they captured in a big house in England called Trent Park. Their rooms were bugged by British Intelligence and everything that was recorded was written down. Very few of the Germans come out with any real credit. Some of them used to go and watch the mass executions. One of them spent all his time talking about the naked Jewish girls!

The Germans of today are among the most liberal and democratic people in Europe. They often put us Brits to shame! But that doesn't mean their ancestors were as nice!

Your last point is very interesting.
I’ve noticed how Liberal the Germans are.
It's like they need to follow a state ideology of one kind of another.
First National Socialism now ingrained Liberalism.
They are still very intolerant of anyone who's thoughts deviate from this of course.
This must be a German national trait.
 
now ingrained Liberalism.
They are still very intolerant of anyone who's thoughts deviate from this of course.
This must be a German national trait.

I think that that's more indicative of Liberalism than being German. The British liberal class (the class, not the political party) are exactly the same!

I reckon it's a natural human reaction, unfortunately. Whoever is in power will frown on any who question them.
 
Last edited:

kenmac

Banned
Yes, of course being submitted to a torrent of increasingly radicalizing propaganda for ten years and believing some of it is the same as some millennia-old "national character".



Was it before or after that British nobleman who complained that the Nazis give "good old-fashioned antisemitism" a bad name?

Basically, nobody doubts that Nazism has coopted the collaboration of significant part of the German population and knowing aquiescence of most of the rest, or that the Wehrmacht was complicit in the massive war crimes esp. in the East. That's not under discussion. The point is that you either assign people some mythical, unchanging "national character" or you don't.

The policy of the British Right was to seek a homeland for the Jews to settle in.
Uganda was pushed by many in the Conservative party including Joe Chamberlain the Colonial Secretery in the early 1900's.
But the Jews voted against it by a small margin.
Palestine was their only logical choice.
 

kenmac

Banned
I think that that's more indicative of Liberalism than being German. The British liberal class (the class, not the political party) are exactly the same!

I reckon it's a natural human reaction, unfortunately. Whoever is in power will frown on any who question them.

Perhaps but I notice this trait very much more among Germans and Scandanavians.
A single mind set can be good trait when in the right hands of course but not in this case.
I am very unsure of people who cant think for themselves.
 
The policy of the British Right was to seek a homeland for the Jews to settle in.
Uganda was pushed by many in the Conservative party including Joe Chamberlain the Colonial Secretery in the early 1900's.
But the Jews voted against it by a small margin.
Palestine was their only logical choice.

The Jewish people establishing a homeland in Uganda at the turn of the century? That must be one of the greatest WIs of the 20th Century.

Wonder how long it would have been before they started campaigning for a return to Palestine? Or how many European countries would have 'encouraged' their Jewish populations to emigrate?
 

kenmac

Banned
The Jewish people establishing a homeland in Uganda at the turn of the century? That must be one of the greatest WIs of the 20th Century.

Wonder how long it would have been before they started campaigning for a return to Palestine? Or how many European countries would have 'encouraged' their Jewish populations to emigrate?

Ive read a counter-factual on this.
The Jews who supported it at the time saw it as a stop gap to an eventual return to Palestine.
But many wanted it as a place of respite from the anti-semtism of Russia in particular.
If it had happened it would have been much like Rhodesia I would imagine.
A shame it never in many ways as it would have spared much suffering.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I've noticed a rather strong current of faith in Ribbentrop in this thread. The man was basically seen by everybody (and I mean everybody) as a pompous dolt and was almost never taken seriously. Some of this may have to do with the fact that being a champagne merchant who was the most sycophantic of Hitler's sycophants doesn't necessarily qualify one to lead the Foreign Ministry :rolleyes:

Basically, Ribbentrop's plan was discredited by the mere fact that it was Ribbentrop who suggested it. I'm not saying that the Germans couldn't have pursued a different policy in the East (the kind thatTodt, Speer, the Wehrmacht,etc. had in mind), but it is extremely unlikely given the fact that you have ideologues like Himmler, Rosenberg, Goebbels, and Heydrich in the most powerful positions, not to mention Hitler's own monomania with regards to the East. With that clique wielding the most influence, any policy in the East other than slavery/extermination will be near-ASB levels of difficulty to get approved.
 
Ive read a counter-factual on this.
The Jews who supported it at the time saw it as a stop gap to an eventual return to Palestine.
But many wanted it as a place of respite from the anti-semtism of Russia in particular.
If it had happened it would have been much like Rhodesia I would imagine.
A shame it never in many ways as it would have spared much suffering.

That...is putting it mildly!

What was the counter-factual? Sounds interesting.
 

kenmac

Banned
I've noticed a rather strong current of faith in Ribbentrop in this thread. The man was basically seen by everybody (and I mean everybody) as a pompous dolt and was almost never taken seriously. Some of this may have to do with the fact that being a champagne merchant who was the most sycophantic of Hitler's sycophants doesn't necessarily qualify one to lead the Foreign Ministry :rolleyes:

Basically, Ribbentrop's plan was discredited by the mere fact that it was Ribbentrop who suggested it. I'm not saying that the Germans couldn't have pursued a different policy in the East (the kind thatTodt, Speer, the Wehrmacht,etc. had in mind), but it is extremely unlikely given the fact that you have ideologues like Himmler, Rosenberg, Goebbels, and Heydrich in the most powerful positions, not to mention Hitler's own monomania with regards to the East. With that clique wielding the most influence, any policy in the East other than slavery/extermination will be near-ASB levels of difficulty to get approved.

Indeed it was Goring who blamed Ribbentrop for the start of the war.
He is said to have told Hitler England would not act on Poland when he knew they would.
He just hated the English so much he wanted to see war with them.
 
there where cliques amongst the german power player personalities... himmler and heyrdrich don't have to win necessarily... i mean hell the army really didn't like them and the waffen ss hadn't really distinguished themselves yet... todt or ribbentrop could throw a hissy fit, and release the details of the einsatzgruppen instructions to a large section of the army officer corps and hitler could get a lot of blow back or threatened resignations
 
Top