Rhineland 1936 The French March

The French march into the demitirialized zone.Hitler is stunned by the boldness of the move and deploy his troops on the western side of the rhine.The world waits as the French and the Nazis growl at each other.What would be the next move?
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Hitler gave a direct order that, should British or French troops be seen trying to stop the Germans, that they were to turn back immediately. Germany wasn't ready for a war with Poland in 1936, much less France and Britain.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
The occupation of the Rhineland in 1936 was, IMHO, the best chance the world had to avoid WWII. If the French had had a bit of backbone, or if the British had been willing to buck up the French, the world could have been spared unimaginable torment.
 
Risking war to prevent German soldiers from moving inside Germany ... might not have been very popular in France. It would have been quite unpopular in Britain, that had grown rather critical of parts of the Treaty of Versailles, and France had become accustomed of acting in concert with the UK.

One should not forget that people massively overestimated the combat-value of the Wehrmacht and were quite afraid of a modern air war.
 
Hitler stands down--although if a firefight does break out, I could see the French pursuing the German Army.

Hitler's bluff is called and his government is disgraced. He might still retain power, but his power, infallibility and outward aggression have been checked to a least a small degree. He is also forced to rescind his orders to violate the Versailles Treaty...

Some suggest that this would topple Hitler--I think it would be a near run thing. Hitler had given the orders, Hitler takes the blame--and how can he get away from the consequences?

I think if Hitler remains in office, its going to be by the skin of his teeth and overt moves towards war are going to be out the window. I would suspect that this defangs Germany, and Hitler lingers in office for perhaps five more years before the Wehrmacht forces him to resign.
 
The French march into the demitirialized zone.Hitler is stunned by the boldness of the move and deploy his troops on the western side of the rhine.The world waits as the French and the Nazis growl at each other.What would be the next move?

I don't see why the French are called the French and the Germans "Nazis". That said, the Germans would have little to growl with. The problem was, in OTL, that on the other hand the French did not want to growl. If you can work around that problem, the Germans withdraw.
 
In 1936 the Germans literally had nothing capable of standing up to the feech, who would have been in Dusseldorf literally as fast as they could walk there. That said, making the French army recognise this is a much bigger problem.

Hitler would get couped, I think.
 
Why does everyone think this would be bad for Hitler?

Germans go back into (German) territory.
Nasty brutal French (communist-inspired) bullies force them out, imposing their rule on the helpless German population again.
Hitler withdraws 'rather than cause civilian casualties as a result of the unfair versailles treaty'
Hitler increases armament spending, even if it causes some civilian shortages, as its obviously needed to defend Germany against French aggression.

Unlikely? Dunno, but I really cant see why a failure should result in Hitler losing power, he had far to strong a grip on it by that point in time.
 
Why does everyone think this would be bad for Hitler?

Germans go back into (German) territory.
Nasty brutal French (communist-inspired) bullies force them out, imposing their rule on the helpless German population again.
Hitler withdraws 'rather than cause civilian casualties as a result of the unfair versailles treaty'
Hitler increases armament spending, even if it causes some civilian shortages, as its obviously needed to defend Germany against French aggression.

Unlikely? Dunno, but I really cant see why a failure should result in Hitler losing power, he had far to strong a grip on it by that point in time.

...He was 30 seconds away from a coup then. As late as 1938 he was on the verge of being toppled by the army over the Sudetenland. I'm not saying Goebels couldn't try to spin it, but the army brass would see it as what it was: Hitler's ridiculously risky bluff being called. They'd have him out doubletime.
 
...He was 30 seconds away from a coup then. As late as 1938 he was on the verge of being toppled by the army over the Sudetenland. I'm not saying Goebels couldn't try to spin it, but the army brass would see it as what it was: Hitler's ridiculously risky bluff being called. They'd have him out doubletime.
Based on what evidence, though? There is always lots of stuff about how Hitler only just got away without a coup, but this to me always seems way too much like wishful thinking.

OK, Generals, we're going to send a small force into our old territories and see if anyone objects.
If they do, well, we'll come back and spin it so they look bad over it. Under no circumstances will it devolve into anything more.

Just HOW is this grounds for a coup???
Against, lets face it, the 'democraticaly' elected leader of the country.
 
Based on what evidence, though? There is always lots of stuff about how Hitler only just got away without a coup, but this to me always seems way too much like wishful thinking.

OK, Generals, we're going to send a small force into our old territories and see if anyone objects.
If they do, well, we'll come back and spin it so they look bad over it. Under no circumstances will it devolve into anything more.

Just HOW is this grounds for a coup???
Against, lets face it, the 'democraticaly' elected leader of the country.

...I don't have the book (Fall of the Third Republic; Rise & Fall of the third Reich probably goes into even more detail) with me at work right now but Halder, for one, was on the verge of putting Hitler "under arrest" or some similar method of getting him out of the way so they could desperately sue for peace. In '38 they were literally (IIRC) about 2h away from driving tanks through the Chancellery when Munich broke.

However Hitler spins it (and Hitler has no choice in the matter as to wether it devolves into something worse; that's entirely up to the French) the generals are going to hear it as "Hey! You see the country over there, with the army 10X large than ours and possessing things like an airforce which we don't have? Well, I'm goint to hit it with this stick! Yeah! How do you like that, France!..." He's going to look reckless to the point of insanity to them.

...Finally, a military coup is always illegal anyways! What difference does it make if Hitler was elected? And if they stage the coup on the "he was a dangerous maniac" excuse, while the French army is grinding the German Army underfoot, they'll have no lack of popular support.
 
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Markus

Banned
Based on what evidence, though? There is always lots of stuff about how Hitler only just got away without a coup, but this to me always seems way too much like wishful thinking.

Get any history book and check the facts.


Against, lets face it, the 'democraticaly' elected leader of the country.
Ok, you need to get yourself more than one histroy book.
 
The Germans immediately retreat, in accordance with Hitler's orders.

Assuming Hitler manages to remain in power (mostly because the Army decides a chastened Hitler will be easy enough to manage and not worth overthrowing) . . . the Rhineland remains demilitarized at least, French-occupied at worst. Germany can't risk further adventures with its industry undefended and under French guns. Further, the French are emboldened by the easy victory, and are much more willing to confront Germany later.

So, Anschluss is canceled for the rest of the decade, and agitation over the Sudetenland or Danzig is deferred even longer. As a distraction from this defeat, Hitler intensifies action against the Jews, with the Kristallnacht-equivalent in late 1936.
 

Markus

Banned
Sorry, but Hitler was, at least theoretically, elected democraticaly (granted, german ideas of democracy are a bit...flexible..).

Not even theoretically unless one applies the Belorussian definition of free elecetions to the 1933 elections. Where the NSDAP still did not get more than 44%.
 
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