RFK in a postwatergate environment.

While I generally agree with you RB, I think you're making RFK more conservative than he actually was. Reading his stuff, this is a man whose first and foremost concern was poverty. Certainly he was not a social democrat, but this is a guy who was by no means a conservative in the more modern sense. I mean he did say that if he was in the same position as Che, he would be a revolutionary too.

That all aside, as a devout Catholic I could see him being sympathetic towards the IRA and Sinn Fein like Ted and many other Irish Catholic Pols (even moderates like Richard Neal, who I think Bobby would be a lot like). Also I doubt he would support Thatcher's policies on detanement without trial and busting the unions. He opposed Hoffa in large part because he wasn't acting in the best interests of the union but rather for himself.

Of course we can't prove alot of this stuff, becuase we're speculating on a reality that didn't happen. But personally I'll take my center-left Bobby from my research.
 
If RFK runs for the Senate in '86 that would be interesting. RFK Jr., aiming for the presidency in 2000-2008, would have to run for the governorship because no way will NY tolerate a father and son as both their senators. It wouldn't work in MA and it wouldn't work in NY. :D
 
While I generally agree with you RB, I think you're making RFK more conservative than he actually was. Reading his stuff, this is a man whose first and foremost concern was poverty. Certainly he was not a social democrat, but this is a guy who was by no means a conservative in the more modern sense. I mean he did say that if he was in the same position as Che, he would be a revolutionary too.

That all aside, as a devout Catholic I could see him being sympathetic towards the IRA and Sinn Fein like Ted and many other Irish Catholic Pols (even moderates like Richard Neal, who I think Bobby would be a lot like). Also I doubt he would support Thatcher's policies on detanement without trial and busting the unions. He opposed Hoffa in large part because he wasn't acting in the best interests of the union but rather for himself.

Of course we can't prove alot of this stuff, becuase we're speculating on a reality that didn't happen. But personally I'll take my center-left Bobby from my research.

Let's not make this into a flame war, because I think with all history, alot of it's influenced by the historian. Im a Progressive Texas Democrat, Poli Sci & History Double Major...and even I think Evan Thomas' RFK His Life is fairly even handed. With that book, I was definatly schooled on how intensley Moralistic Bobby was, which is rare coming from a man with a Law background(Bobby lived in a heaven and hell type of world, not the "It Depends" of Carter)

I think Bobby could have won in '76 against Reagan vairy handidly, as Bobby's the only one who can cut WWC voters away from him at the knees. That leaves Reagan with the South(Ex. TX if Bentsen the VP), the midwest and the Pacific Coast could be a toss up. But I think If Bobby sweeps the Rust Belt, than he's fine. Legislation wise, I can't see him pushing through that much different legislation than Carter did as Jimmy had a fairly Moderate approach. Health Care's probably a lock, and we may get a solid commitment on Alternative Energy, but probably little difference.

If we can get the Hostages released in a quickly manner, and can prop up the economy long enough to get inflation undercontrol, then I think it's reasonable to see that Bobby narrowly wins re-election in 1980. On the Republican Side, it's the Bush v. Dole slugfest that we never really got IOTL(Primaries are way more fun when the candidates can't stand each other). As a Conservative Midwesterner, Dole probably reminds too many within the party of a Dull Reaganite, as the party swings back to the moderates.

We are also assuming that Bush's career stays the same ITTL, I mean there could be enough butterflies, that maybe Ford decides to give the Veep spot to him in '74? Or maybe Bobby keeps him in at CIA Director, which even Bush knew at the time was a political dead end(Carter had this weird thing about wanting all of his own people at Key postions). But let's say he does somehow get the nomination in '80...You have the battle of the Passionate vs. the seemingly un-empathic Bush, and I honestly think that although it would be a civil contest, RFK would wipe the floor with him in the debates.

How might Bobby's second term go...I think it could be very rough. the '81-82 Recession was largely a direct result of Volcker's monetary policy, but It was something that had to be ridden out for the prosperity that we saw in the later decades. We definatly wont' see Supply Side ERTA under Bobby, and he might see that we need more of a fiscal stimulus, tax breaks for business or if were using Bill as our case study, we probaly get a stronger version of the EITC and FICA. Still Republican's will make huge gains in the '82 midterms, and praying that the recovery from the Recession isn't felt for another two years.

But when the economy does turn around, I think Vice President Bentsen has a very good shot running for Bobby's third term. If Dole is the nominee, they both have the expeirence to make good Presidents but my god would that be a boring General Election. All Bentsen has to do is to forge an electoral map simmilar to Carter's in '76 and he's golden; relying on the South as his base rather than WWC voters in the Rust Belt. Assuming that something big like Iran-Contra comes out, and maybe a lackluster solution to the S&L Crisis could make Bentsen a One Term President. As for candidates who could beat him in an election(I get so tired of seeing the same candidates over and over) I like New Jersey Governor Tom Kean or Big Jim Thompson of Illinois.

But going back to the POD, what kinda of Senate Career might Bobby have if he serves till '77. Could he get on the Judiciary, and be one of the main players grilling the Nixon cabinet about their involvement in the watergate scandal? Can He get Nixon impeached before he's resigned? How much of an opposition leader would he be to Nixon/Ford's Domestic Policy?
 
Historico, we Kexperts don't flame. Surely you remember my very civilized debate with StevenAttewell a few months ago on this subject? :p

As for the Senate: RFK by 1970 would move up to Foreign Affairs or Judiciary. At the time of his death he was chairman of Indian Affairs, which was then a subcommittee. When it becomes a full committee he will have enough seniority to upgrade to FR or Judiciary. Bobby could play the role of "Leader of the Opposition" to Nixon/Ford, but he will be #1 on the Enemies List. Nixon wouldn't pull anything because Bobby was every bit his equal, if not his superior, when it came to dirty tricks. Unlike Sam Ervin he could easily relapse into the 1950s-style abrasive questioning of witnesses, etc. He would try to impeach Nixon but it depends how quickly the smoking gun comes out. The House has to vote first, and Nixon would probably quit rather than see his archnemesis take full credit for his downfall. I agree with you about how the presidency would go, but since Bob Michel is no Newt it actually makes it easier for the remaining legislation Bobby wants to pass in his final two years in office.
 
Another thing is that Bobby, as the leader of his party, will continue bending them to his ideological will. He will ensure that McGovern-Fraser happens on schedule, though he would be more open to WTA primaries than they were. RFK's critique of the Great Society was very ideological, something that his contemporaries on both sides picked up but few today. By 1973-4 you could well see a DLC analogue founded with Pat Moynihan heading it up, and the Southerners would be his allies there. On social issues there is no difference between him and the modern GOP right, and you could well see him try and forge an alliance with the RR for the Dems. Unlike the formerly pro-choice Reagan, RFK doesn't have to prove his SoCon credentials.
 
t. Assuming that something big like Iran-Contra comes out, and maybe a lackluster solution to the S&L Crisis could make Bentsen a One Term President. As for candidates who could beat him in an election(I get so tired of seeing the same candidates over and over) I like New Jersey Governor Tom Kean or Big Jim Thompson of Illinois.

That's interesting to me in it's own right.
 
The Kennedy Spirit of ’76: A POTUS List

36. Lyndon B. Johnson (D-TX): November 22nd 1963-January 20th 1969
37. Richard M. Nixon (R-NY): January 20th 1969-August 4th 1974*
38. Gerald R. Ford (R-MI): August 4th 1974-January 20th 1977

39. Robert F. Kennedy (D-NY): January 20th 1977-January 20th 1985***
40. Lloyd M. Bentsen (D-TX): January 20th 1985-January 20th 1989

41. Newton L. “Newt” Gingrich (R-GA): January 20th 1989-January 20th 1997
42. L. “Doug” Wilder (D-VA): January 20th 1997-January 20th 2005***
43. John M. Engler (R-MI): January 20th 2005-January 20th 2009
44. Kathleen Kennedy (D-MD): January 20th 2009-January 20th 2017***
45. Julian Castro (D-TX): January 20th 2017-???***


Notes

37. First to resign the Presidency, while facing impeachment proceedings.
39. First Brother of a former President, to be elected
42. First African American President
44. First Female President, as well as first Daughter of a President to be elected
45. First Latino President(Of Mexican Descent)

The Kennedy Spirit of ’76: VEEP List

38. Hubert H. Humphrey (D-MN): January 20th 1965-January 20th 1969
39. Spiro T. Agnew (R-MD): January 20th 1969-October 10th 1973*
Vacant: October 10th-December 6th 1973
40. Gerald R. Ford (R-MI): December 6th 1973-August 4th 1974
Vacant: August 4th-December 19th 1974
41. Nelson A. Rockefeller (R-NY): December 19th 1974-January 20th 1977
42. Lloyd M. Bentsen (D-TX): January 20th 1977-January 20th 1985
43. Edmund “Jerry” Brown Jr. (D-CA): January 20th 1985-January 20th 1989

44. James R. “Jim” Thompson (R-IL): January 20th 1989-January 20th 1997
45. Birch E. “Evan” Bayh III (D-IN): January 20th 1997-January 20th 2005
46. John E. “Jeb” Bush (R-FL): January 20th 2005-January 20th 2009
47. Thomas C. “Chet” Edwards (D-TX): January 20th 2009-January 20th 2017
48. James H. “Jim” Webb Jr. (D-VA): January 20th 2017-???***


The Kennedy Spirit of ’76: Defeated Ticket List

1968: Hubert H. Humphrey (D-MN)/Edmund Muskie (D-ME) ; George C. Wallace (AI-AL)/Curtis Le May (AI-VA)
1972: George S. McGovern (D-SD/Terry Sanford (D-NC)
1976: Ronald W. Reagan (R-CA)/Richard Schweiker (R-PA)
1980: George H. W. Bush (R-TX)/Phil Crane (R-IL)
1984: Howard Baker (R-TN)/Newt Gingrich (R-GA)
1988: Lloyd M. Bentsen (D-TX)/Jerry Brown (D-CA)
1992: Jerry Brown (D-CA)/Doug Wilder (D-VA)
1996: Jim Thompson (R-IL)/Pete Wilson (R-CA)
2000: Caroll A. Campbell (R-SC)/H. Ross Perot (R-TX)
2004: Evan Bayh (D-IN)/Zell Miller (D-GA)
2008: John Engler (R-MI)/Jeb Bush (R-FL)
2012: Jeb Bush (R-FL)/Mitt Romney (R-MA)
2016: Christine O’ Donnell (R-DE)/George Pataki (R-NY)
 
You do know that female Kennedys were not supposed to aim for the WH? It would be RFK Jr. who'd be groomed by his father, or if he's not interested John will be pressured into entering politics.
 
You do know that female Kennedys were not supposed to aim for the WH? It would be RFK Jr. who'd be groomed by his father, or if he's not interested John will be pressured into entering politics.

It's not like Poppa Bobby's going to disown his his daughter for seeking the White House. :p

Anyway, awesome list, Historico.

If George H.W. Bush takes over in 1984, I can see a similar Impossible Dream scenario happening where Bush continues RFK's monetarist-like policies, and maintains the economic boom.
 
You do know that female Kennedys were not supposed to aim for the WH? It would be RFK Jr. who'd be groomed by his father, or if he's not interested John will be pressured into entering politics.

Well you know, dealing with the Kennedy's...Shit happens sometimes, RFK Jr. just has to take one trip home, high on heiroin one night in rainy conditions, then in a flash, he becomes the fourth Generation's Joe Jr.
 
In this case Bobby will be going through the same problems Thatcher faced in 1979-82 on the economic front. Unlike her, but like Reagan, his personal popularity can insulate him from some of the fallout. As regards to the ATC strike: I can see RFK doing what Reagan did. More likely he gives them a negotiation window of 48 or 72 hours, then pulls the trigger. Yeah, Walt will be pissed, but as he said of MLK, "National Security, and that's all the answer you're gonna get!" :D

A thought: If Mulroney wins the Tory leadership in '76 and beats Trudeau in '79 (a given), then you could see an earlier CAFTA in 1983-4. Bobby would wait for a Republican Congress who would ram it through over the squawking of protectionists, liberals and Rust Belters of both parties. It gets ratified in 1983 as RFK leaves office, then Bush can take credit for the gains in 1986-7, as pissed as Bobby would be. :p
 
Well you know, dealing with the Kennedy's...Shit happens sometimes, RFK Jr. just has to take one trip home, high on heiroin one night in rainy conditions, then in a flash, he becomes the fourth Generation's Joe Jr.

Ah, but I think RFK would reign his son in, and prevent him from touching and abusing heroin.
 
Well you know, dealing with the Kennedy's...Shit happens sometimes, RFK Jr. just has to take one trip home, high on heiroin one night in rainy conditions, then in a flash, he becomes the fourth Generation's Joe Jr.

Where does heroin come in to play here? You know damn well that the 4th gen crap happened because all adult control vanished once his father died. They went from dutiful-obedient to JDs within about 3 years. That still doesn't account for John though, who's much less the risk-taker than either Bobby. ;)

Ah, but I think RFK would reign his son in, and prevent him from touching and abusing heroin.

It wouldn't happen. As I told you, the 4th gen would not go off the rails. Bobby was God-Emperor in power among the kids- no one would defy him anything more than respectful disagreement. 99% of the time that worked out in quite blissful conditions. The other 1%... well let's just say that RL facepalming (no, I'm not kidding) is something you're supposed to take manfully (not applicable to girls), as exemplified in "Kennedys don't cry". 30 seconds, it's over, life moves on, everyone's happy. Tickle-tumbles aren't always benign either. With the Kennedys, touch rules are applicable all the time,
 
Last edited:
In this case Bobby will be going through the same problems Thatcher faced in 1979-82 on the economic front. Unlike her, but like Reagan, his personal popularity can insulate him from some of the fallout. As regards to the ATC strike: I can see RFK doing what Reagan did. More likely he gives them a negotiation window of 48 or 72 hours, then pulls the trigger. Yeah, Walt will be pissed, but as he said of MLK, "National Security, and that's all the answer you're gonna get!" :D

A thought: If Mulroney wins the Tory leadership in '76 and beats Trudeau in '79 (a given), then you could see an earlier CAFTA in 1983-4. Bobby would wait for a Republican Congress who would ram it through over the squawking of protectionists, liberals and Rust Belters of both parties. It gets ratified in 1983 as RFK leaves office, then Bush can take credit for the gains in 1986-7, as pissed as Bobby would be. :p

Do you really see Bobby pushing for CAFTA? I know you have him signing free trade legislation into law in your TL, but I would personally see him being a little more prone to fair trade. Of course he's not a protectionist, but I tend to see Bobby as coming down on the more "human" side of things here.
 
Also I'm definately gonna do something like this once my Cuomo TL is done in a few months/weeks.

Awesome, Yeah...I think RB's focusing on pulling research for his Great Society or Canadian TL POD that he plans to unveil in December...so this pod should be all yours(I think it should be that he just decides against jumping in the race)

As for the Heroin, ok maybe it was there way of coping with their loss but I also think it was a form of rather extreme rebellion against the tremendous pressures that come with being a Kennedy. So in a RFK in '76 TL I assume that their lives would be much more stable. Still that doesn't mean RFK Jr. path is fordained for the White House. If Kathleen's already embarking on seperate political career in Maryland, and let's sa RFK Jr. gets into a tragic car accident in the late '90's, most likely she would place the burden for the Presidential run once she wins statewide office. JPK II could do it, but I think he's kind of an ass:p
 
And what about John again? Not the reckless type. But yeah, JPK II is/was an ass, and was not the sharpest knife in the drawer either even as a kid. Bobby was, and they fought terribly when Joe answered "Emperor of China" in answer to his father's question as to who Ho Chi Minh was. :p For some reason Bobby wanted to let Joe work for him for a year as an unpaid assistant either in the Senate or at the WH instead of uni because despite tutors he still couldn't get into uni.
 
Top