Revolutions of 1848 in the German states

How did it succed? Were the revolutionaries more radical and went for a republic? Was there a mor liberal king in prussia which accepted the crown? Did they go for the Kleindeutsch (small germany, with the border of OTL second Reich)) or Grossdeutsche (greater Germany OTL Germany plus austria and Czechia) solution? How did the succesfull revolution affect the rest of Europe?
 
The Kleindeutsche Lösung was finally accepted by the German national assembly in Frankfurt, but the Prussian king denied to take the crown from revolutionaries.

The problem of the Grossdeutsche Lösung (plus Austria and Bohemia) was: what would happen with the other parts of the Austrian Empire? Independent with Habsburg monarchs? Or personal unions with the German Emperor (then from Habsburg) as head of state? Or a loose confederation with the new German Reich (which wanted neither the Germans nor the Slavs or Hungarians)?
Austria would have liked to unite with the Germans states, but not at the cost of the integrity of the Habsburg empire, and this was the main problem.

The Mitteleuropäische Lösung (all of the Germanies plus entire Habsburg realm) was proposed by Austria, but declined by the majority of the delegates in Frankfurt and most monarchs, and of course the great powers in Europe protested immediately. Even if the parliament in Frankfurt and all states had accepted this solution, i think France nor Russia would have declared war to avoid the creation of such a powerful neighbor.

And any form of republic was out of question. Nobody but a bunch of radicals wanted this form of governement.
 
I've sometimes wondered about a more successful Baden Revolution. It did a pretty good job OTL, until the Prussians came along and smacked it.

Could it act as a nucleus for liberal thought within the German Confederation?
 
The Kleindeutsche Lösung was finally accepted by the German national assembly in Frankfurt, but the Prussian king denied to take the crown from revolutionaries.

To have a successful '48 in Germany, I think that this is the main POD. Having a Prussian King who was willing to take the German crown. I think that just about any other Prussian king would have taken it, where it came from be damned. If you throw in that the guy is the second coming of Frederick the Great, well then, more power to you.

The problem of the Grossdeutsche Lösung (plus Austria and Bohemia) was: what would happen with the other parts of the Austrian Empire? Independent with Habsburg monarchs? Or personal unions with the German Emperor (then from Habsburg) as head of state? Or a loose confederation with the new German Reich (which wanted neither the Germans nor the Slavs or Hungarians)?

I think that if the Prussian King decided to accept the German crown, then you would see a massive outpouring of patriotic support for the new German emperor. Specifically, the '48ers would try and annex their principalities to the new German state (which would presumably already include Prussia) ala the Italian patriots vis a vis Piedmont-Sardinia (though with much more military success, since this is Germans and Prussia we're talking about).

If you have a militarily active Prussian army, with all the support that could probably be obtained from the rest of Germany (I'm thinking hundreds of thousands of young men ready to stand up and fight for the new "Second Reich"), then I think that you could probably support Austria's bid to severe her ties to the rest of the Hapsburg holdings. If you lose Austria then you really lose the raisan d'etat (sp?) for the Hapsburg existance as a unified house, and I think that you could see a three way split, with Hungary, Austria-Bohemia (inside a Grossduetsch Germany), and Lombardy-Venetia being divided among three Hapsburg males. I would support putting Maximilian on the Lombardy throne, and probably put Franz Josef on the Hungarian one, with the youngest brother on the Austrian-Bohemian throne.

Austria would have liked to unite with the Germans states, but not at the cost of the integrity of the Habsburg empire, and this was the main problem.

With Prussia having accepted the German crown, the Hapsburgs' needs and wants may not be getting taken into consideration.

The Mitteleuropäische Lösung (all of the Germanies plus entire Habsburg realm) was proposed by Austria, but declined by the majority of the delegates in Frankfurt and most monarchs, and of course the great powers in Europe protested immediately. Even if the parliament in Frankfurt and all states had accepted this solution, i think France nor Russia would have declared war to avoid the creation of such a powerful neighbor.

As well it should. It would be much better to spin the Kingdom of St. Stephen off, because then it is politically independent, but internationally and economically it is going to have to rely on the German Empire for support. I don't see Hungary going anywhere else for support, especially since I would think that during the Crimean War (should it happen) the Hungarians are going to be quite interested in intervening to grab the mouth of the Danube. Perhaps after Hungary goes independent, you still end up with a Dual or even Triple Monarchy- with Hungary, Romania, and Yugoslavia all under the auspices of the senior line of the House of Hapsburg.

And any form of republic was out of question. Nobody but a bunch of radicals wanted this form of governement.

This would beg the question though, what does a Germany where Prussia has accepted the crown look like? The liberals have seemingly won a great victory, but I would think that the Prussians would soon set out to make sure that nationalism starts trumping liberalism. Or perhaps they use the relatively liberal central government as a means of taking the princely liberties of the other German states? Bismarck could be the man who truly united Germany, putting the Reichstag above all the Princes.
 
To have a successful '48 in Germany, I think that this is the main POD. Having a Prussian King who was willing to take the German crown. I think that just about any other Prussian king would have taken it, where it came from be damned. If you throw in that the guy is the second coming of Frederick the Great, well then, more power to you.



I think that if the Prussian King decided to accept the German crown, then you would see a massive outpouring of patriotic support for the new German emperor. Specifically, the '48ers would try and annex their principalities to the new German state (which would presumably already include Prussia) ala the Italian patriots vis a vis Piedmont-Sardinia (though with much more military success, since this is Germans and Prussia we're talking about).

If you have a militarily active Prussian army, with all the support that could probably be obtained from the rest of Germany (I'm thinking hundreds of thousands of young men ready to stand up and fight for the new "Second Reich"), then I think that you could probably support Austria's bid to severe her ties to the rest of the Hapsburg holdings. If you lose Austria then you really lose the raisan d'etat (sp?) for the Hapsburg existance as a unified house, and I think that you could see a three way split, with Hungary, Austria-Bohemia (inside a Grossduetsch Germany), and Lombardy-Venetia being divided among three Hapsburg males. I would support putting Maximilian on the Lombardy throne, and probably put Franz Josef on the Hungarian one, with the youngest brother on the Austrian-Bohemian throne.



With Prussia having accepted the German crown, the Hapsburgs' needs and wants may not be getting taken into consideration.



As well it should. It would be much better to spin the Kingdom of St. Stephen off, because then it is politically independent, but internationally and economically it is going to have to rely on the German Empire for support. I don't see Hungary going anywhere else for support, especially since I would think that during the Crimean War (should it happen) the Hungarians are going to be quite interested in intervening to grab the mouth of the Danube. Perhaps after Hungary goes independent, you still end up with a Dual or even Triple Monarchy- with Hungary, Romania, and Yugoslavia all under the auspices of the senior line of the House of Hapsburg.



This would beg the question though, what does a Germany where Prussia has accepted the crown look like? The liberals have seemingly won a great victory, but I would think that the Prussians would soon set out to make sure that nationalism starts trumping liberalism. Or perhaps they use the relatively liberal central government as a means of taking the princely liberties of the other German states? Bismarck could be the man who truly united Germany, putting the Reichstag above all the Princes.

Good considerations.

Austria and Bohemia would increase the power of a new Germany considerably. They were the strongest provinces in financial and economic terms in the Habsburg realm AND were ancient imperial lands (so you have a legal claim). But the same is true for Lombardy and partly Venetia, which were in the medieval parts of the HRE. But of course this could eventually lead to conflict with Piemont-Sardinia.

And you are right about the economic dependece. Since the remaining parts of the Habsburg realm would be economical much weaker than the German Empire, the Germans could very well dominate their economy. Maybe one could connect the question of independence for Hungary with the signing of a trade or customs agreement.

And i think you meant raison d'etat.:)
 
Good considerations.

Austria and Bohemia would increase the power of a new Germany considerably. They were the strongest provinces in financial and economic terms in the Habsburg realm AND were ancient imperial lands (so you have a legal claim). But the same is true for Lombardy and partly Venetia, which were in the medieval parts of the HRE. But of course this could eventually lead to conflict with Piemont-Sardinia.

My thinking was that this break was basically the three sort of "legal" divides that you already had. Austria and Bohemia were both part of the German Confederation, the non-Italian land outside of the German Confederation was basically the old borders of the "Kingdom of St. Stephen" (uber-Hungary), and Lombardy-Venetia had been outside of Imperial jurisdiction for a long time (and outside the German Confederation), and didn't speak German, and didn't want to be a part of Germany (and I don't think most German leaders wanted to involve themselves in Italy).

Plus I think that if you put Maximilian on the Lombard throne (I'm thinking resurrect the Lombard's Iron Crown) then you can give Piedmont-Sardinia a serious run for their money for who gets to unite Italy. Piedmont-Sardinia got to become the uniter of Italy by default, since the Sicilian Bourbons were too incompetent. They had no particularly compelling claim to Italian leadership, and the royal family barely spoke Italian. If you put Maximilian on the Lombard throne and give that boy a free hand, then I'm rather convinced that you would see Italy united by the Hapsburgs (specifically Maximilian, since I'm willing to give him a pretty long natural life).

And you are right about the economic dependece. Since the remaining parts of the Habsburg realm would be economical much weaker than the German Empire, the Germans could very well dominate their economy. Maybe one could connect the question of independence for Hungary with the signing of a trade or customs agreement.

I was thinking much the same thing. After Franz Josef realizes that his empire is crumbling and there is almost nothing he can do about it, he makes a deal with the Prussian King, breaking up the Hapsburg Empire and agreeing to the customs union and alliance (perhaps?) with Germany, in return for German support in putting down the Hungarians and recognizing Franz-Josef as the King of Hungary. With the agreement to break up the Hapsburg Empire and place Franz-Josef as the King of an independent Hungary I think that most of the support for the Magyar's rebellion would fade. Toss in a general amnesty and recognition of some of the Magyar demands and you've got a hunky dory peace.

And i think you meant raison d'etat.:)
Yes. Thank you.
 
Well if the King of Prussia still refuses the offer of the Frankfurt assembly perhaps events would go a little something like this:

The Crown is offered then to the Habsburg, however only Austria, Bohemia, and possibly Galicia would become part of the new German Empire. Similar to MC's idea the Habsburgs agree to divide the Empire in three, however I believe Franz Joseph would accept the title Emperor of the Germans rather then having to try and convince the Hungarians to let him be Apostolic King of Hungary. Maximilian and Karl Ludwig would both still be minors at this point, however they would still be crowned King of Venetia for Maximilian, and Apostolic King of Hungary for Karl, however it is likely regence councils would rule until they came of age. I also argee with MC on Maximilian, I believe no matter what country he was put incharge of he would have been a fabulous Head of State, and that he easily could have come to dominate Italy, with a little help from a Venetian Cavour, his brother the Emperor of the Germans, and perhaps Garibaldi. Meanwhile in Hungary I believe a powerful Hungarian Parliament would form, likely dominated by the nobles, they would force Karl to become a Constitutional Monarch, Hungary would be a likely candidate for the West to support in the opening power vacuum left by Ottoman Turkey instead of the Russians. In Germany, Austria would likely be lowered to back to the Archduchy of Austria(I have a very hard time with the Kingdom of Austria in general) however Vienna would probably become the capital of Germany. Franz Joseph would probably recall Metternich, who would serve as this Germany's Bismarck. Prussia would likely withdraw/declare war, France would jump in on Prussia's side and some combination of the Netherlands, Russia, and Great Britain on Germany's side. The Prussians and French would get their butts kicked, similar to the Franco-Prussian war, with either Henri V or Louis-Philippe being restored to the French Throne, and Prussia would be forced to cede all territory inside the former German Confederation to Germany, with the Prussians turning their interest to Poland and the Baltics, under Russian domination. There'd probably be a war with Denmark and another with the Netherlands over Luxembourg. The only thing I'm unsure of in this scenario is whether Galicia would be part of Hungary, Germany, or gain independence, possibly under the 4th Habsburg Son, Ludwig Viktor(IOTL he was a flaming homosexual, obviously looked down on at that time, but who knows, butterfly effect eh)?
 
Of course we have to remember that France and Russia are not likely going to stand by idely while a new gigant arises in Central Europe. I would expect the Germans to win, largely thanks to the Prussian army and the sheer amount of well trained soldiers compared to the smaller French army and the huge but ill-equipped Russian army.

And then of course Germany is now united before the scramble for Africa truely begins, so a larger colonial empire is a given.
 
Well if the King of Prussia still refuses the offer of the Frankfurt assembly perhaps events would go a little something like this:

The Crown is offered then to the Habsburg, however only Austria, Bohemia, and possibly Galicia would become part of the new German Empire. Similar to MC's idea the Habsburgs agree to divide the Empire in three, however I believe Franz Joseph would accept the title Emperor of the Germans rather then having to try and convince the Hungarians to let him be Apostolic King of Hungary.

So let me stop you right here. Why is the German crown offered to the Austrian Emperor? iOTL it wasn't and for good reasons, mainly the overwhelmingly non-German character of Austria's holdings.

Maximilian and Karl Ludwig would both still be minors at this point, however they would still be crowned King of Venetia for Maximilian, and Apostolic King of Hungary for Karl, however it is likely regency councils would rule until they came of age.

I also argee with MC on Maximilian, I believe no matter what country he was put incharge of he would have been a fabulous Head of State, and that he easily could have come to dominate Italy, with a little help from a Venetian Cavour, his brother the Emperor of the Germans, and perhaps Garibaldi.


I don't think he would need a Venetian Cavour. Also, don't you think that the Max's Italian crown would be a resurrection of the old Lombard Kingdom? I think that the Lombard's Iron Crown would be a great thing to resurrect, since it would demonstrate the long-standing ties that German-speakers had to the region and Italy in general. Also being a minor with a regency, how would that evolve? I would think that Max would learn Italian, but who would be his regent? I actually was thinking that he wouldn't have one, he would be like 16 or 17 by the time the whole thing was worked out, so he could definitely rule directly from the beginning.

Meanwhile in Hungary I believe a powerful Hungarian Parliament would form, likely dominated by the nobles, they would force Karl to become a Constitutional Monarch, Hungary would be a likely candidate for the West to support in the opening power vacuum left by Ottoman Turkey instead of the Russians.
Dominated by Magyar nobility I think would be the operative phrase. And I don't know how much support Hungary would get from the West. I can see a Hungarian intervention in the Crimean War as I stated previously, in order to get control of the Danube's mouth in the Black Sea, but beyond that, why would you increase your holdings of land filled with people who you have no intention of integrating into your Empire? Also, I think that you would see Hungary get control of Galacia, since if you look at map, it makes the most sense.

In Germany, Austria would likely be lowered to back to the Archduchy of Austria(I have a very hard time with the Kingdom of Austria in general) however Vienna would probably become the capital of Germany. Franz Joseph would probably recall Metternich, who would serve as this Germany's Bismarck.
Definitely agree with the lowering of Austria into an Archduchy. I would expect that the Hapsburg ruler in Germany would use the title King of Bohemia as his first title, since the Prussian King would be the emperor.

I really don't see Metternich operating well in this environment. I don't think that Franz Josef was intellectually capable of dealing with the kind of environment that a newly united Germany would present to him. I believe there are very good reasons that he oversaw the complete collapse of a more than half-millenium long family empire.

Prussia would likely withdraw/declare war, France would jump in on Prussia's side and some combination of the Netherlands, Russia, and Great Britain on Germany's side. The Prussians and French would get their butts kicked, similar to the Franco-Prussian war, with either Henri V or Louis-Philippe being restored to the French Throne, and Prussia would be forced to cede all territory inside the former German Confederation to Germany, with the Prussians turning their interest to Poland and the Baltics, under Russian domination. There'd probably be a war with Denmark and another with the Netherlands over Luxembourg. The only thing I'm unsure of in this scenario is whether Galicia would be part of Hungary, Germany, or gain independence, possibly under the 4th Habsburg Son, Ludwig Viktor(IOTL he was a flaming homosexual, obviously looked down on at that time, but who knows, butterfly effect eh)?
Interesting but beside the point. I don't think that it would be Prussia being forced out of the German Empire, it would be the Prussians leading Germany in forcing out the Hapsburgs. I really just don't think that Franz Josef was a man capable of leading a united Germany. Maximilian, perhaps, but Franz Josef? No way.

Of course we have to remember that France and Russia are not likely going to stand by idly while a new gigantic arises in Central Europe. I would expect the Germans to win, largely thanks to the Prussian army and the sheer amount of well trained soldiers compared to the smaller French army and the huge but ill-equipped Russian army.

I think that Germany would certainly be frightening, but I don't know what could be done about it. With Prussia having accepted the German crown and the German people fully supporting the new regime I don't see who could possibly oppose that kind of national force:
-The Hapsburgs are in control in Italy, but are fighting desperately in Hungary and probably have lost de facto (if not de jure) control of Austria.
-The Russians are busy putting Hungary down, and I don't think have either the means or motivation to go to war with Prussia-Germany.
-The French are dealing with political chaos inside the Second Republic. Napoleon is still plotting his political rise, and is not even yet in a position to launch his coup. Perhaps you could have the 2nd Republic launch a bid to grab control of the Rhineland or something, and in the aftermath of getting slapped around by the Prussians Napoleon III could carry out a coup to takeover French government. This would presumably be an army-backed coup and would really do strange things to French history, with that much earlier political intervention by the Army.

And then of course Germany is now united before the scramble for Africa truly begins, so a larger colonial empire is a given.

That is out of left-field. The scramble for Africa was very much a unique product of its times, and I don't know if the successful '48 is going to be enough to spark the kind of hyper-nationalism that caused the "Scramble for Africa." You don't have Italian unification yet, Germany is going to be dealing with some interesting internal problems (though the lure of foreign adventures to distract the domestic audience would certainly be appealing to the Prussian King-Emperor), and France could be all kinds of messed up (maybe Napoleon III leads the intervention into Germany and he gets beaten and discredited. That would de-rail the rising Bonaparte-ism and probably lead to an extended Second Republic. Could be a really fun timeline.)
 
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In my Afrikaner TL, I've got the Prussian Emperor accepting "the crown from the gutter" due to some earlier permutations (I believe the Hungarians revolt early and the Italians get out from under the Hapsburgs successfully and the Frankfurt Diet is a bit more coherent, so the revolutionary cause appears stronger).

The new Kaiser is able to buy off Russia by offering them Austrian Galicia in exchange for recognizing Prussian gains everwhere else (ie Austria, Slovenia, Bohemia, and the other German states).
 
So let me stop you right here. Why is the German crown offered to the Austrian Emperor? iOTL it wasn't and for good reasons, mainly the overwhelmingly non-German character of Austria's holdings.
Because I'm very fond of Austria, the Habsburgs and Franz Joseph and it was my proposal. And again it was offer with the understanding that the other sections of the Habsburg Empire would gain independence and not become part of Germany.


I don't think he would need a Venetian Cavour. Also, don't you think that the Max's Italian crown would be a resurrection of the old Lombard Kingdom? I think that the Lombard's Iron Crown would be a great thing to resurrect, since it would demonstrate the long-standing ties that German-speakers had to the region and Italy in general. Also being a minor with a regency, how would that evolve? I would think that Max would learn Italian, but who would be his regent? I actually was thinking that he wouldn't have one, he would be like 16 or 17 by the time the whole thing was worked out, so he could definitely rule directly from the beginning.
Indeed, I think the Iron Crown is a wonderful idea. I wasn't sure as to who the regent would be, I also thought he'd probably just take over right away, but I wasn't sure.

Dominated by Magyar nobility I think would be the operative phrase. And I don't know how much support Hungary would get from the West. I can see a Hungarian intervention in the Crimean War as I stated previously, in order to get control of the Danube's mouth in the Black Sea, but beyond that, why would you increase your holdings of land filled with people who you have no intention of integrating into your Empire? Also, I think that you would see Hungary get control of Galacia, since if you look at map, it makes the most sense.
Indeed Magyar, and I don't really mean support, but they'd prefer the Hungarians in power over the Russians.

Definitely agree with the lowering of Austria into an Archduchy. I would expect that the Hapsburg ruler in Germany would use the title King of Bohemia as his first title, since the Prussian King would be the emperor.
Again I'm still off in my Habsburg's Forever Land on this one. I'm not sure, assuming that a Prussian does take power, whether they'd use their title as King of Bohemia or Archduke of Austria, seeing as they were generally far more well liked in Austria at any given time then Bohemia.

I really don't see Metternich operating well in this environment. I don't think that Franz Josef was intellectually capable of dealing with the kind of environment that a newly united Germany would present to him. I believe there are very good reasons that he oversaw the complete collapse of a more than half-millenium long family empire.
And I believe that he was a victim of his environment. I believe he would be a very capiable ruler of a united Germany especially as a young man before he becomes the iconic grumpy old Habsburg Reaction, as for Metternich I'm not really sure how that would go, but again as a Habsburg Romantic, its a nice thought.
Interesting but beside the point. I don't think that it would be Prussia being forced out of the German Empire, it would be the Prussians leading Germany in forcing out the Hapsburgs. I really just don't think that Franz Josef was a man capable of leading a united Germany. Maximilian, perhaps, but Franz Josef? No way.
Again I beg to differ.
 
Let us assume, the crown is offered to Franz Josef and he accepts. Hungary and Lombardy are given - as proposed by ImperialVienna - to Karl Ludwig and Maximilian. Now the reaction of Prussia is crucial. But i think an agreement is possible. As the Prussians are a soldier-state, why not sweaten things for Friedrich Wilhelm IV and give the Prussian King additionaly a pompous title like Supreme Imperial Marshal of the Imperial Army or anything similar. Prussia agreeds to a Habsburg Emperor and Franz Josef is crowned in Aachen as German Emperor Franz I. (or Franz III. if you continue the counting from HR-Emperors). Then Lombardy and Hungary are bound to Germany by a military and trade alliance. Now you have a strong power block and i'm pretty sure any power (most likely France or Russia) who would contest this result by force would be given a bloody nose.

But what would happen now in Europe?
IIRC during the debates in 1848 in the National Assembly in Frankfurt it was proposed (or it actually happened, there i'm not sure) to give security guarantees to the non-german territories of German Confederation monarchs.

What about a German Empire that considers itself as protector of the Netherlands and Denmark, finally trying to interfere in domestic policies or actually annexing this states? What do you think?
 
Let us assume, the crown is offered to Franz Josef and he accepts. Hungary and Lombardy are given - as proposed by ImperialVienna - to Karl Ludwig and Maximilian. Now the reaction of Prussia is crucial. But i think an agreement is possible. As the Prussians are a soldier-state, why not sweaten things for Friedrich Wilhelm IV and give the Prussian King additionaly a pompous title like Supreme Imperial Marshal of the Imperial Army or anything similar. Prussia agreeds to a Habsburg Emperor and Franz Josef is crowned in Aachen as German Emperor Franz I. (or Franz III. if you continue the counting from HR-Emperors). Then Lombardy and Hungary are bound to Germany by a military and trade alliance. Now you have a strong power block and i'm pretty sure any power (most likely France or Russia) who would contest this result by force would be given a bloody nose.

I think the POD can be solved rather easily. A slightly different Frederick William IV of Prussia. The man was a committed German Romantic, well make him idealize the old Hohenstaufens' who struggled for Empire. He does not oppose German unification, and when '48 happens he accepts the German crown. As part of his acceptance he brings the non-German parts of his kingdom into Germany.

But what would happen now in Europe?
I think that Germany would certainly be frightening to Europe, but I don't know what could be done about it. With Prussia having accepted the German crown and the German people fully supporting the new regime I don't see who could possibly oppose that kind of national force:
-The Hapsburgs are in control in Italy, but are fighting desperately in Hungary and probably have lost de facto (if not de jure) control of Austria.
-The Russians are busy putting Hungary down, and I don't think have either the means or motivation to go to war with Prussia-Germany.
-The French are dealing with political chaos inside the Second Republic. Napoleon is still plotting his political rise, and is not even yet in a position to launch his coup. Perhaps you could have the 2nd Republic launch a bid to grab control of the Rhineland or something, and in the aftermath of getting slapped around by the Prussians Napoleon III could carry out a coup to takeover French government. This would presumably be an army-backed coup and would really do strange things to French history, with that much earlier political intervention by the Army.

IIRC during the debates in 1848 in the National Assembly in Frankfurt it was proposed (or it actually happened, there i'm not sure) to give security guarantees to the non-german territories of German Confederation monarchs.
This would probably cover Prussia, but I think at this point the Frankfurt Assembly was probably working within a "Lesser" Germany framework, where Austria has already been excluded. I just don't see how the German nationalists could accept the massive burden of defending the massive non-German Hapsburg possessions.

What about a German Empire that considers itself as protector of the Netherlands and Denmark, finally trying to interfere in domestic policies or actually annexing this states? What do you think?
Why would they consider this? I can see the German Empire pursuing the war with Denmark to gain Schweig-Holstien (sp) but beyond that I don't see them taking a special interest in the internal affairs of Denmark and the Netherlands
 
It's too bad that no one thought forward enough to come up with some sort of 1848 EU. The National Assembly adopts the Big Germany approach with Austria as part of a federal Germany with its capital at Frankfurt am Main or Vienna. Austrian Emperor is German Emperor. Prussia is included. Non-German parts of Prussia and Austria and set up as there own independent states in personal union with the Austrian or Prussian Crowns. Then Germany, with all these new states enter into customs and military union.

Would this have worked? Was anyone thinking along these lines?
 
It's too bad that no one thought forward enough to come up with some sort of 1848 EU. The National Assembly adopts the Big Germany approach with Austria as part of a federal Germany with its capital at Frankfurt am Main or Vienna. Austrian Emperor is German Emperor. Prussia is included. Non-German parts of Prussia and Austria and set up as there own independent states in personal union with the Austrian or Prussian Crowns. Then Germany, with all these new states enter into customs and military union.

Would this have worked? Was anyone thinking along these lines?

Some German nationalists in Frankfurt were thinking along those lines. The problem was that both the Prussian and Austrian monarchs were very conservative and very opposed to the whole idea of a united Germany. If you have a different Prussian King, or a different Austrian Emperor (I would lean toward Prussia because I think they had more of an interest in a united Germany for a bunch of reasons I can get into if this discussion continues) that would be willing to sponsor Frankfurt and use it as a vehicle to gain control of Germany, then that idea is definitely a possibility.

I think the idea of a Prussia-led Germany, that forces the Hapsburgs to break up their possessions and enter into some kind of economic union, would definitely have the possibility of becoming that sorta-Europe wide institution. I could see a Maximilian-led Lombardy becoming the unifier of Italy, while Prussia-Germany and Hapsburg Hungary decide to back Polish nationalism as a counter to Russian expansionism in the Balkans. Hapsburg Hungary grabbing the mouth of the Danube would go far in keeping the Russians from directly interfering in the Balkans and could do some really strange things to the later half of the 19th century's Ottoman history in the Balkans (like keeping them Ottoman- a Magyar-dominated Hungary isn't going to want to expand into Ottoman-owned Slav-occupied land once it has control of the Danube- there is no upside).
 
Why would they consider this? I can see the German Empire pursuing the war with Denmark to gain Schweig-Holstien (sp) but beyond that I don't see them taking a special interest in the internal affairs of Denmark and the Netherlands

Why? Maybe because of this:

Taken from "Dictionary of Political Theories" by Karl Albrecht Baron von Gellen (Badener Reichsverlag, 1989)

...PAN-GERMANISM: While nationalism, born out of the catastrophe of the Napoleonic Wars, had its victories after the revolution 1848, it would need only a few years to see the birth of a vital offspring. Already mentioned in some newspapers in spring 1850, it was the editorial of the Neuer Reichsanzeiger, a newspaper available in the entire German Empire, printed in Munich, which marked the first important call for a broader view of nationalism, based not only on language, but also on the germanic descent of some European peoples. Especially the Dutch and the Scandinavians were, at least in the view of Pan-Germanists, brothers of all Germans...
...Hardly surprising, this was not the view in the concerned states, which feared German interference. But this fear was without reason, at least until the elections for the new Reichstag in 1858, when the Pan-Germanist party received 14% of the votes, making it strong enough to be part of the coalition of the governement, and holding 3 ministeries...
 
Why? Maybe because of this:

Taken from "Dictionary of Political Theories" by Karl Albrecht Baron von Gellen (Badener Reichsverlag, 1989)

...PAN-GERMANISM: While nationalism, born out of the catastrophe of the Napoleonic Wars, had its victories after the revolution 1848, it would need only a few years to see the birth of a vital offspring. Already mentioned in some newspapers in spring 1850, it was the editorial of the Neuer Reichsanzeiger, a newspaper available in the entire German Empire, printed in Munich, which marked the first important call for a broader view of nationalism, based not only on language, but also on the germanic descent of some European peoples. Especially the Dutch and the Scandinavians were, at least in the view of Pan-Germanists, brothers of all Germans...
...Hardly surprising, this was not the view in the concerned states, which feared German interference. But this fear was without reason, at least until the elections for the new Reichstag in 1858, when the Pan-Germanist party received 14% of the votes, making it strong enough to be part of the coalition of the governement, and holding 3 ministeries...

14% of the vote, while high, does not demonstrate that German nationalism was going to shift into a pan-Germanic peoples kind of thing. I can see that sort of thing happening later, with the rise of Social Darwinism, but as it was circa 1848 I think that Germany will be spending quite a bit of time on internal stuff.

If you have a Prussian King championing the cause of German unity in 1848, does lead to a unitary German state? I'm thinking that with the Prussian acceptance of the title "Emperor of the Germans" is an explicit declaration of a unitary state, going over the princes. The ascendency of the '48 nationalists will probably lead to a Prussian-backed overthrow of the rest of the German princes, and establishment of a unitary state. I'm imaging sort of a parallel to Italy, where Italian nationalists annexed themselves to Piedmont-Sardinia.

This would probably make the possibility of foreign intervention much higher however. A German Emperor, ruling over the lesser German Kings, that is one thing, but a German Emperor, directly ruling all of Germany, and with a liberal constitution, that is quite another. An intervention by the French, Hapsburgs and Russians in support of "German Liberties" seems very likely.

I have to say that I really like the idea of Napoleon III (who is not yet French Emperor) leading an intervention into Germany, along with the Russians and Hapsburgs. The invasion serves to solidify popular support for the Frankfurt-Prussia regime, and leads directly to a unitary state.
-Napoleon is defeated in the Rhineland, and he is forced into exile, while the Second Republic, now bereft of Bonapartism, staggers on (rather like the 3rd Republic OTL).

-The Russians invade Prussia, and penetrate into Germany, but face fierce partisan resistance and a totally destroyed supply line. The Russians are forced to withdraw from Germany, though they refuse to recognize the German regime and St. Petersburg becomes the home of many exiled German princes, whose ancestor will become known as the "German" court faction.

-Following the defeat of the Russians the Hapsburg are forced to make concessions to the new German Empire, and forge an agreement. Bohemia is made an autonomous part of the German Empire, with a Hapsburg King (with the youngest brother as King), Hungary is independent (under Franz-Josef), though has an economic and military alliance with the German Empire, and Lombardy-Venetia gets its independence, under Maximilian. Austria becomes a part of the unitary German Empire.
 
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