The Kleindeutsche Lösung was finally accepted by the German national assembly in Frankfurt, but the Prussian king denied to take the crown from revolutionaries.
The problem of the Grossdeutsche Lösung (plus Austria and Bohemia) was: what would happen with the other parts of the Austrian Empire? Independent with Habsburg monarchs? Or personal unions with the German Emperor (then from Habsburg) as head of state? Or a loose confederation with the new German Reich (which wanted neither the Germans nor the Slavs or Hungarians)?
Austria would have liked to unite with the Germans states, but not at the cost of the integrity of the Habsburg empire, and this was the main problem.
The Mitteleuropäische Lösung (all of the Germanies plus entire Habsburg realm) was proposed by Austria, but declined by the majority of the delegates in Frankfurt and most monarchs, and of course the great powers in Europe protested immediately. Even if the parliament in Frankfurt and all states had accepted this solution, i think France nor Russia would have declared war to avoid the creation of such a powerful neighbor.
And any form of republic was out of question. Nobody but a bunch of radicals wanted this form of governement.
To have a successful '48 in Germany, I think that this is the main POD. Having a Prussian King who was willing to take the German crown. I think that just about any other Prussian king would have taken it, where it came from be damned. If you throw in that the guy is the second coming of Frederick the Great, well then, more power to you.
I think that if the Prussian King decided to accept the German crown, then you would see a massive outpouring of patriotic support for the new German emperor. Specifically, the '48ers would try and annex their principalities to the new German state (which would presumably already include Prussia) ala the Italian patriots vis a vis Piedmont-Sardinia (though with much more military success, since this is Germans and Prussia we're talking about).
If you have a militarily active Prussian army, with all the support that could probably be obtained from the rest of Germany (I'm thinking hundreds of thousands of young men ready to stand up and fight for the new "Second Reich"), then I think that you could probably support Austria's bid to severe her ties to the rest of the Hapsburg holdings. If you lose Austria then you really lose the raisan d'etat (sp?) for the Hapsburg existance as a unified house, and I think that you could see a three way split, with Hungary, Austria-Bohemia (inside a Grossduetsch Germany), and Lombardy-Venetia being divided among three Hapsburg males. I would support putting Maximilian on the Lombardy throne, and probably put Franz Josef on the Hungarian one, with the youngest brother on the Austrian-Bohemian throne.
With Prussia having accepted the German crown, the Hapsburgs' needs and wants may not be getting taken into consideration.
As well it should. It would be much better to spin the Kingdom of St. Stephen off, because then it is politically independent, but internationally and economically it is going to have to rely on the German Empire for support. I don't see Hungary going anywhere else for support, especially since I would think that during the Crimean War (should it happen) the Hungarians are going to be quite interested in intervening to grab the mouth of the Danube. Perhaps after Hungary goes independent, you still end up with a Dual or even Triple Monarchy- with Hungary, Romania, and Yugoslavia all under the auspices of the senior line of the House of Hapsburg.
This would beg the question though, what does a Germany where Prussia has accepted the crown look like? The liberals have seemingly won a great victory, but I would think that the Prussians would soon set out to make sure that nationalism starts trumping liberalism. Or perhaps they use the relatively liberal central government as a means of taking the princely liberties of the other German states? Bismarck could be the man who truly united Germany, putting the Reichstag above all the Princes.
Good considerations.
Austria and Bohemia would increase the power of a new Germany considerably. They were the strongest provinces in financial and economic terms in the Habsburg realm AND were ancient imperial lands (so you have a legal claim). But the same is true for Lombardy and partly Venetia, which were in the medieval parts of the HRE. But of course this could eventually lead to conflict with Piemont-Sardinia.
And you are right about the economic dependece. Since the remaining parts of the Habsburg realm would be economical much weaker than the German Empire, the Germans could very well dominate their economy. Maybe one could connect the question of independence for Hungary with the signing of a trade or customs agreement.
Yes. Thank you.And i think you meant raison d'etat.![]()
Well if the King of Prussia still refuses the offer of the Frankfurt assembly perhaps events would go a little something like this:
The Crown is offered then to the Habsburg, however only Austria, Bohemia, and possibly Galicia would become part of the new German Empire. Similar to MC's idea the Habsburgs agree to divide the Empire in three, however I believe Franz Joseph would accept the title Emperor of the Germans rather then having to try and convince the Hungarians to let him be Apostolic King of Hungary.
Maximilian and Karl Ludwig would both still be minors at this point, however they would still be crowned King of Venetia for Maximilian, and Apostolic King of Hungary for Karl, however it is likely regency councils would rule until they came of age.
I also argee with MC on Maximilian, I believe no matter what country he was put incharge of he would have been a fabulous Head of State, and that he easily could have come to dominate Italy, with a little help from a Venetian Cavour, his brother the Emperor of the Germans, and perhaps Garibaldi.
Dominated by Magyar nobility I think would be the operative phrase. And I don't know how much support Hungary would get from the West. I can see a Hungarian intervention in the Crimean War as I stated previously, in order to get control of the Danube's mouth in the Black Sea, but beyond that, why would you increase your holdings of land filled with people who you have no intention of integrating into your Empire? Also, I think that you would see Hungary get control of Galacia, since if you look at map, it makes the most sense.Meanwhile in Hungary I believe a powerful Hungarian Parliament would form, likely dominated by the nobles, they would force Karl to become a Constitutional Monarch, Hungary would be a likely candidate for the West to support in the opening power vacuum left by Ottoman Turkey instead of the Russians.
Definitely agree with the lowering of Austria into an Archduchy. I would expect that the Hapsburg ruler in Germany would use the title King of Bohemia as his first title, since the Prussian King would be the emperor.In Germany, Austria would likely be lowered to back to the Archduchy of Austria(I have a very hard time with the Kingdom of Austria in general) however Vienna would probably become the capital of Germany. Franz Joseph would probably recall Metternich, who would serve as this Germany's Bismarck.
Interesting but beside the point. I don't think that it would be Prussia being forced out of the German Empire, it would be the Prussians leading Germany in forcing out the Hapsburgs. I really just don't think that Franz Josef was a man capable of leading a united Germany. Maximilian, perhaps, but Franz Josef? No way.Prussia would likely withdraw/declare war, France would jump in on Prussia's side and some combination of the Netherlands, Russia, and Great Britain on Germany's side. The Prussians and French would get their butts kicked, similar to the Franco-Prussian war, with either Henri V or Louis-Philippe being restored to the French Throne, and Prussia would be forced to cede all territory inside the former German Confederation to Germany, with the Prussians turning their interest to Poland and the Baltics, under Russian domination. There'd probably be a war with Denmark and another with the Netherlands over Luxembourg. The only thing I'm unsure of in this scenario is whether Galicia would be part of Hungary, Germany, or gain independence, possibly under the 4th Habsburg Son, Ludwig Viktor(IOTL he was a flaming homosexual, obviously looked down on at that time, but who knows, butterfly effect eh)?
Of course we have to remember that France and Russia are not likely going to stand by idly while a new gigantic arises in Central Europe. I would expect the Germans to win, largely thanks to the Prussian army and the sheer amount of well trained soldiers compared to the smaller French army and the huge but ill-equipped Russian army.
And then of course Germany is now united before the scramble for Africa truly begins, so a larger colonial empire is a given.
Because I'm very fond of Austria, the Habsburgs and Franz Joseph and it was my proposal. And again it was offer with the understanding that the other sections of the Habsburg Empire would gain independence and not become part of Germany.So let me stop you right here. Why is the German crown offered to the Austrian Emperor? iOTL it wasn't and for good reasons, mainly the overwhelmingly non-German character of Austria's holdings.
Indeed, I think the Iron Crown is a wonderful idea. I wasn't sure as to who the regent would be, I also thought he'd probably just take over right away, but I wasn't sure.I don't think he would need a Venetian Cavour. Also, don't you think that the Max's Italian crown would be a resurrection of the old Lombard Kingdom? I think that the Lombard's Iron Crown would be a great thing to resurrect, since it would demonstrate the long-standing ties that German-speakers had to the region and Italy in general. Also being a minor with a regency, how would that evolve? I would think that Max would learn Italian, but who would be his regent? I actually was thinking that he wouldn't have one, he would be like 16 or 17 by the time the whole thing was worked out, so he could definitely rule directly from the beginning.
Indeed Magyar, and I don't really mean support, but they'd prefer the Hungarians in power over the Russians.Dominated by Magyar nobility I think would be the operative phrase. And I don't know how much support Hungary would get from the West. I can see a Hungarian intervention in the Crimean War as I stated previously, in order to get control of the Danube's mouth in the Black Sea, but beyond that, why would you increase your holdings of land filled with people who you have no intention of integrating into your Empire? Also, I think that you would see Hungary get control of Galacia, since if you look at map, it makes the most sense.
Again I'm still off in my Habsburg's Forever Land on this one. I'm not sure, assuming that a Prussian does take power, whether they'd use their title as King of Bohemia or Archduke of Austria, seeing as they were generally far more well liked in Austria at any given time then Bohemia.Definitely agree with the lowering of Austria into an Archduchy. I would expect that the Hapsburg ruler in Germany would use the title King of Bohemia as his first title, since the Prussian King would be the emperor.
And I believe that he was a victim of his environment. I believe he would be a very capiable ruler of a united Germany especially as a young man before he becomes the iconic grumpy old Habsburg Reaction, as for Metternich I'm not really sure how that would go, but again as a Habsburg Romantic, its a nice thought.I really don't see Metternich operating well in this environment. I don't think that Franz Josef was intellectually capable of dealing with the kind of environment that a newly united Germany would present to him. I believe there are very good reasons that he oversaw the complete collapse of a more than half-millenium long family empire.
Again I beg to differ.Interesting but beside the point. I don't think that it would be Prussia being forced out of the German Empire, it would be the Prussians leading Germany in forcing out the Hapsburgs. I really just don't think that Franz Josef was a man capable of leading a united Germany. Maximilian, perhaps, but Franz Josef? No way.
Let us assume, the crown is offered to Franz Josef and he accepts. Hungary and Lombardy are given - as proposed by ImperialVienna - to Karl Ludwig and Maximilian. Now the reaction of Prussia is crucial. But i think an agreement is possible. As the Prussians are a soldier-state, why not sweaten things for Friedrich Wilhelm IV and give the Prussian King additionaly a pompous title like Supreme Imperial Marshal of the Imperial Army or anything similar. Prussia agreeds to a Habsburg Emperor and Franz Josef is crowned in Aachen as German Emperor Franz I. (or Franz III. if you continue the counting from HR-Emperors). Then Lombardy and Hungary are bound to Germany by a military and trade alliance. Now you have a strong power block and i'm pretty sure any power (most likely France or Russia) who would contest this result by force would be given a bloody nose.
I think that Germany would certainly be frightening to Europe, but I don't know what could be done about it. With Prussia having accepted the German crown and the German people fully supporting the new regime I don't see who could possibly oppose that kind of national force:But what would happen now in Europe?
This would probably cover Prussia, but I think at this point the Frankfurt Assembly was probably working within a "Lesser" Germany framework, where Austria has already been excluded. I just don't see how the German nationalists could accept the massive burden of defending the massive non-German Hapsburg possessions.IIRC during the debates in 1848 in the National Assembly in Frankfurt it was proposed (or it actually happened, there i'm not sure) to give security guarantees to the non-german territories of German Confederation monarchs.
Why would they consider this? I can see the German Empire pursuing the war with Denmark to gain Schweig-Holstien (sp) but beyond that I don't see them taking a special interest in the internal affairs of Denmark and the NetherlandsWhat about a German Empire that considers itself as protector of the Netherlands and Denmark, finally trying to interfere in domestic policies or actually annexing this states? What do you think?
It's too bad that no one thought forward enough to come up with some sort of 1848 EU. The National Assembly adopts the Big Germany approach with Austria as part of a federal Germany with its capital at Frankfurt am Main or Vienna. Austrian Emperor is German Emperor. Prussia is included. Non-German parts of Prussia and Austria and set up as there own independent states in personal union with the Austrian or Prussian Crowns. Then Germany, with all these new states enter into customs and military union.
Would this have worked? Was anyone thinking along these lines?
Why would they consider this? I can see the German Empire pursuing the war with Denmark to gain Schweig-Holstien (sp) but beyond that I don't see them taking a special interest in the internal affairs of Denmark and the Netherlands
Why? Maybe because of this:
Taken from "Dictionary of Political Theories" by Karl Albrecht Baron von Gellen (Badener Reichsverlag, 1989)
...PAN-GERMANISM: While nationalism, born out of the catastrophe of the Napoleonic Wars, had its victories after the revolution 1848, it would need only a few years to see the birth of a vital offspring. Already mentioned in some newspapers in spring 1850, it was the editorial of the Neuer Reichsanzeiger, a newspaper available in the entire German Empire, printed in Munich, which marked the first important call for a broader view of nationalism, based not only on language, but also on the germanic descent of some European peoples. Especially the Dutch and the Scandinavians were, at least in the view of Pan-Germanists, brothers of all Germans...
...Hardly surprising, this was not the view in the concerned states, which feared German interference. But this fear was without reason, at least until the elections for the new Reichstag in 1858, when the Pan-Germanist party received 14% of the votes, making it strong enough to be part of the coalition of the governement, and holding 3 ministeries...