Revisiting Kaiserreich's plausibility after rework.

[Worffan101]

Actually, that's a really good way to frame my complaint. I actually 100% agree. It's not the UoB that's silly, it's Canada - namely that everyone who wasn't a leftist packed up and moved to Canada like it was British Taiwan.

What I objected to wasn't syndicalism being democratic - it was "lol why is everyone moving out to provide an enemy if it's democratic." So what I thought was silly were the syndicalists making huge changes that well, democratic societies can't do. And then other stupid shit like the UoB navy being funded entirely by voluntary donations because of libertarian socialism or something. Basically, they get to purge Britain of right-wingers like a totalitarian state could...while remaining a democracy?

That's, um, more like anarcho-capitalism. Syndicalism is more, "everybody must pay equally into society but also has an equal right to decide how society operates". Hence, union membership is required to vote, but union membership is by constitutional mandate extended to every adult citizen. Stuff like that.

Honestly, Canada should have no more than 11 million population at the start of the game. I can see like 1 million nobility, Royalists, military loyalists, etc. leaving, but given that the pre-revolutionary government must've lost most if not all of its legitimacy through gross incompetence to spark the rebellion in the first place, I'm not seeing how five million people (a ninth of the British population!) leave for Canada in a huff. Once grand systemic change is in place, people tend to resist further shakeups and get on with their lives unless placed under dire stress, since it's effectively the new status quo.

 

[TastySpam]

That's, um, more like anarcho-capitalism. Syndicalism is more, "everybody must pay equally into society but also has an equal right to decide how society operates". Hence, union membership is required to vote, but union membership is by constitutional mandate extended to every adult citizen. Stuff like that.

Honestly, Canada should have no more than 11 million population at the start of the game. I can see like 1 million nobility, Royalists, military loyalists, etc. leaving, but given that the pre-revolutionary government must've lost most if not all of its legitimacy through gross incompetence to spark the rebellion in the first place, I'm not seeing how five million people (a ninth of the British population!) leave for Canada in a huff. Once grand systemic change is in place, people tend to resist further shakeups and get on with their lives unless placed under dire stress, since it's effectively the new status quo.

Yeah, which further underscores why it's so silly. Like literally, the kaiserreich wiki talks about how the UoB Navy (the most advanced in the world)...is entirely voluntarily funded, which triggers my DOUBT.jpg instincts.

https://kaiserreich.fandom.com/wiki/Union_of_Britain

Also yeah, not many people are leaving just because of a change of government. Almost everyone who threatens to move to another country if they lose an election is bluffing. People move to 1) avoid violence/being persecuted and 2) maybe if they think they'll never win power ever ever again. In any democratic society, both #1 and #2 are going to be false, so presumably almost everyone in the ancien regime stays...and forms a distinctly non-syndicalist opposition. Which was kind of my point - they wanted the ideological conformity of an OTL Communist state with the democratic credentials of an OTL social democracy, and we're not getting both at the same time lol

 

[freivolk]

It still basically is a parliamentary democracy, the only reason the British revolution happened is that dissatisfaction with the massive war for nothing and an increasingly dire economic situation, that wasn't properly addressed while the conservative government tried to play dirty to quash potential France-inspired socialist rebellion, flared up and the government response was too harsh, causing open rebellion.

The 2ACW is a bit of a stretch, but considering that this USA had 8 years of McAdoo/Palmer, there was no USSR to facilitate the moderate/Communist split in the US labor movement, and Hherbert Hoover made things even worse by vetoing the first attempt at a relief package, I can see the sequence of events leading up to the starting situation and thus the civil war happening.

I really wonder, if the UK really is a parlamentary DEMOCRACY in 1925. IOTL the voting right was before 1918 income based,means Britain was basicly an oligarcy. The wiki lore doesn´t say, if this was changed, but I personal think a large part of the british worker class has in 1925 still no right to vote, which give them an extra reason to rebell.

 

[David Finder]

My niche issue with the KR lore is the lack of Zionism. In the last update they added a few events for the Ottomans so that Zionism kinda exists if you permit all Jewish immigration, but there's no trigger for a proper state, just some factories and units in Palestine. The initial middle east rework actually had the original Ottoman Vilayets in the name of "decolonization", which made getting Eretz Israel borders impossible because the Galilee was in the same province as the Syrian coast. They've changed since then, but it's still kinda weird.

 

[jankmaster98]

Plausibility always depends on which way your head tilts when you’re looking at it. I just kinda remind myself it’s more of a games narrative than anything else.

 

[TyranicusMaximus]

Kaiserreich started out as a pretty far-out-there alt-hist that went with changing things enough to make a world that while still recognizable was very different from our own. I feel the HOI4 era moves towards plausibility hasn't worked, because while parts of the world are now "more plausible," other parts of the world are still fantastical like the 2ACW. This is what happens when the lore is changed in a piecemeal way to quell some complaints while leaving other areas largely untouched for balance reasons.

 

[Gukpard]

Something I would like to be added in case of a UoB invasion of Ireland would be a option to integrate northern ireland and create a independent syndicalist or totalist Ireland on the rest of the territory, as for now you can only annex Ireland fully or create a full Ireland. I don't think that is too far fetched since a restored Uk can do that.

 

[MadFrog]

I'm sorry, but English is not my mother tongue, so I use the Google translator.

There is no way Kerensky holds onto power for anywhere close to twenty years

The October Revolution happens and everything, and White military forces are victorious but Kerensky returns and is just swept into power after proving entirely ineffective in 1917. Would be autocratic dictators just wait in the wings until 1936 when the President dies before they take action?

Kerenskis Russia is as absurd and plausible like Weimar Germany.

I do think that Kerensky personally still leading Russia is implausible. Even with German backing.

Kerensky as president of post-cw Russia is completely impossible. His actions (especially his betrayal of Kornilov) played a decisive role why the civil war began. If he appears in Russia, hundreds of thousands of people will instantly line up to shoot him (and the millions after to spit on his corpse), and Kornilov and Kolchak will be the first to do it.

And Germany will never support him. He supported Britain and wanted to continue the war.

 

[MadFrog]

I'm sorry, but English is not my mother tongue, so I use the Google translator.

Italy

I liked it, but I think that the reasons for "Balkanization" should be reviewed. Austria-Hungary acts like an idiot with the decision to divide Italy into several parts.
A more realistic option would be a political crisis after the end of the war, which turned into a civil war and the country's disintegration into several parts.
It was quite convincingly described in the version that I recommended here.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...f-the-weltkrieg.433458/page-172#post-19692835

American civil war

And I also love this and I have no plot problems of this event. But I would return the possibility of a MacArthur coup in 1936. This would allow to start a civil war earlier and not wait another six months.

And it’s easy to justify the plot: if the coalition is not formed or it broke up, the government is quite frightened by the rise of armed radicals to power (1936 is enough violent for this), and agree with MacArthur’s plan to introduce a state of emergency and disarm the radical opposition. As a result, we have something like GKChP and 1991 Soviet coup d'état attempt, but with much more serious consequences.

And I think Civil War is still needed in a gameplay rework. It should be much more chaotic at the beginning, like here - https://www.reddit.com/r/Kaiserreich/comments/b9v4dq/estimated_areas_of_control_in_the_american/
La Résistance expansion and patch 1.8 will provide a lot of new instruments for this.

China

I just adore it. Seriously, why can't create a game just about China?

 

[Jesus]

The whole premise is messed up. Germany wins WW1, that's fine, but then you get into the gist of it. Aside from the Second ACW and China, there's more issues such as why would Britain have a revolution instead of just holding another general election in which Labour wins? How is Germany, after being tired from WW1, move in to take down the Russian Revolutionaries? Why would they, considering an unstable Russia in a civil war is what they were hoping for? How is a very reduced France capable of blitzkrieging through Germany? You can't really have a Nazi Germany-as-France analogue in any plausible post-WW1 scenario, simply because France doesn't have the manpower to be able to take down Germany. Revolutionary zeal and tanks can only get you as far as the Rhineland, until Germany hits back. Germany wouldn't be France's France, it'd be its USSR.

Speaking of Germany, how would it be able to gain the British colonies and replace Britain as the leading world power? I can't see Germany enforcing any demands outside of Europe. At best, it could hope to keep its German colonies, but even then its not likely. Germany wins WW1 most likely means Germany winning in Europe, but Britain taking their colonies regardless.

 

[MadFrog]

I'm sorry, but English is not my mother tongue, so I use the Google translator.

New armored car land unit type * brings to the second american civil war that element that is guaranteed to be, if we talk about realism.
* - https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hoi4-dev-diary-armored-cars-the-new-horsey-boys.1257117/
The American auto industry was monstrous, just look here will be enough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Automobile_Production_Figures

Given the lack of artillery, real armored vehicles and any anti-tank weapons at the initial stage of the civil war, we get a situation where any armor will be the king of the battlefield.

Here you can look at the Spanish Civil War, where there were hundreds of makeshift armored vehicles (also known as "los tiznaos")

 

[MadFrog]

And this is in small (compared to the USA in terms of size and number of cars) Spain. where virtually every small city tried to build at least one such.

 

[MadFrog]

I'm sorry, but English is not my mother tongue, so I use the Google translator.

Another worth mentioning is improvised armored vehicles on a tracked chassis.

You can speculate here, but I think the appearance in the game for all four sides of the civil war of the unit “Improvised armored car” and “improvised tank” is completely justified.
They should have very mediocre characteristics, but this is the only armored vehicles that the parties to the conflict can receive in the first year of the war in large numbers.

 

[Colonel Grubb]

Speaking of Germany, how would it be able to gain the British colonies and replace Britain as the leading world power? I can't see Germany enforcing any demands outside of Europe. At best, it could hope to keep its German colonies, but even then its not likely. Germany wins WW1 most likely means Germany winning in Europe, but Britain taking their colonies regardless.

That's always been one of the things I've found particularly odd - indeed the whole handling of the post-war British Empire in Africa and the Far East has always struck me as unrealistic, even by KR universe standards. I think the lore is sort of a "Chancellor Tirpitz commands and the world obeys".

Not for maintaining a British/German colonial status-quo after the war, but the way in which the collapse of the British Empire and seizure of colonies is described in the lore. I think the explanation for the collapse of the British Empire, and subsequent carve up of the British Empire is stretching things for the sake of gameplay (which is fine for a game).
https://kaiserreich.fandom.com/wiki/Deutsch-Ostasien -

The Syndicalist revolution in Britain allowed Germany to further expand in the Far East. The German Empire managed to secure most of the British Asian Empire as well as the strategic colonies of Malta, Suez, Aden, Ceylon, the Strait Colonies, Brunei, and Sarawak. Singapur was taken as an ideal naval base of the Ostasiatische Station. All the newly-acquired colonies, under the political maneuver of Tirpitz, were put under the Imperial naval office rather than the colonial office.

 

[akoslows]

On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate the China rework in terms of plausibility? I ask because that the devs have had a HUGE focus on plausibility for that rework, and I'm curious as to what you guys thought of their efforts.

 

[Worffan101]

On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate the China rework in terms of plausibility? I ask because that the devs have had a HUGE focus on plausibility for that rework, and I'm curious as to what you guys thought of their efforts.

It looks a LOT better than the current version, and I'm really excited to see how it plays out!

 

[Deleted member 107125]

It looks a LOT better than the current version, and I'm really excited to see how it plays out!

But the real question is, when will it be out?

 

[akoslows]

But the real question is, when will it be out?

The devs have stated it'll be somtime in either November or December.

 

[Thande]

Hi - I'm not a HoI person, but if I can do a bit of cheeky advertising, some of you may not be aware that Sea Lion Press publishes a book called The People's Flag (by our founder, @Meadow ) which attempts to do a vaguely more plausible take on the Union of Britain in Kaiserreich. See below - taken from the updates I post on this SLP update thread.

The People's Flag by Tom Black (Meadow on AHcom):
1917. The Kaiser declines to resume unrestricted submarine warfare.
1919. France collapses into Syndicalist revolution.
1921. Britain signs the 'Peace with Honour', formally ending the Great War.
1925. An incident involving Welsh miners leads to a General Strike, which soon becomes the British Revolution...

In the opening volumes of this faux-history book, scholars from another timeline come together to write a flowery and officially-sanctioned history of the Union of Britain, a socialist republic on the island of Great Britain. From its fiery birth through to bureaucratic political manoeuvres, this book spans the years 1925 to 1940.

Based on notes from early builds of the Hearts of Iron modification 'Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg', and penned by a former 'Kaiserreich' developer, 'The People's Flag' fleshes out the backstory of the Union of Britain, and offers speculative detail on other radically altered countries in the 'Kaiserreich' universe.

Lovers of 'Kaiserreich' and newcomers to the entire setting alike will love Tom Black's ('Agent Lavender', 'Zonen', 'Meet The New Boss') history book from another world.

Thande's thoughts: I'm actually reading this properly for the first time right now, and enjoying it. @Meadow (Tom Black) started posting it here on AH.com waaaay back in 2010, but this version is obviously greatly improved. I particularly enjoyed Meadow's attempt at mimicking Jeremy Clarkson's writing style, from a TL where he grew up in post-Syndicalist Britain and is mainly train-mad rather than car-mad.
Fun fact: seeing the original thread was my first exposure to Meadow and at the time, I thought he was a filthy casual as a result of some of the odder 'writing decisions', not realising the scenario was based on the Kaiserreich mod for Hearts of Iron and thus he was stuck with trying to justify some AH-questionable stuff that had been put in by other people. Funny how things turn out isn't it, now he's running the world's first AH publisher and publishing my books.

See purchase page on the SLP site here.

 

[GDIS Pathe]

On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate the China rework in terms of plausibility? I ask because that the devs have had a HUGE focus on plausibility for that rework, and I'm curious as to what you guys thought of their efforts.

I’d give an 9-10 for its plausibility in the context of the still widely unrealistic setting which involves ASBs guiding Admiral Hipper to crushing the RN at Second Jutland and a inexplicable collapse of the British government in a shockingly short time span combined with the British colonies rolling over with little or no intervention from the Dominions or the French National Government