Revised Color Scheme (aRCS/RCS) - Discussion/Workbench

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

I was thinking Kent maybe, but its only importance is as an unofficial vassal of other powers (the Franks first, the Mercians later). I'm sure it should have a Frank influence shade around 600.
Also, if you get rid of Franconia's color, maybe you should merge it with Essen rather than Palatinate, but that is a topic for another day.
Also, I seem to remember a discussion we had about reservoir, and representing them with a different shade of water color. 12.5 IIRC.
Am I correct?

 

[LSCatilina]

I was thinking Kent maybe, but its only importance is as an unofficial vassal of other powers (the Franks first, the Mercians later). I'm sure it should have a Frank influence shade around 600.

Most probably for Frankish influence (if not outline, according some, but that's definitely a maximalist if plausible approach giving some sporadic Merovigian claims), and the same could be said (if nuanced) about Sussex and East Anglia as well for the late VIIth and up to middle VIIIth. Merovingian influence had an important role into early Anglo-Saxon christianisation and hegemonic constitutions.

The situation with Mercia is both close and different : up to Offa's, Mercian overlordship was intermittent if acknowledged (which is, as far it can be told, not the case with Franks) and Mercian dominance in the late VIIIth century doesn't takes the form of an overlordship of Kent, but making it an ealdormancy as what existed in Mercia (hence why you should either make an attempt to draw ealdormancies in late Anglo-Saxon hegemonies if you want to represent former kingdoms, or represent Northumbria, Mercia and Wesse without). Kent at this point, was not a sub-kingdom but a subdivision of Mercia, so to speak, maybe exception made of Cuthred and Baldred (and that's not entierely obvious there were significant institutional changes).

Also, if you get rid of Franconia's color, maybe you should merge it with Essen rather than Palatinate, but that is a topic for another day.

I'm not seeing a color for Essen?

Also, I seem to remember a discussion we had about reservoir, and representing them with a different shade of water color. 12.5 IIRC.

Indeed :this was a problem since how God knows long.

 

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

I'm not seeing a color for Essen?

Strange, I thought there was one.

EDIT: LSC, don't send curses to me, but come around 1200/300 aRCS might need a Comyn/Stratchilde/minor Scottish, to distinguish the Highlands clans from the Lowlands (and maybe some of the border clans too, that may be loyal to the King of England). Also, could Northumbria color double for Cromwell/Civil War/Separatist England?

 

[LSCatilina]

Strange, I thought there was one.

Maybe it got rid of some years ago?

EDIT: LSC, don't send curses to me, but come around 1200/300 aRCS might need a Comyn/Stratchilde/minor Scottish

Strathclyde was not really influential, tough, and when not part of a Briton/Cumbric ensemble, generally more under influence (either Pict, Scottish or English).and the Clan Comyn role seems...rather limited geopolitically to the Anglo-Scottish wars.
Couldn't it be represented trough scottish autonomy/influence shades?

(and maybe some of the border clans too, that may be loyal to the King of England).

Couldn't this be done with an English color - influence shade?

If it's really needed, we could use a distinct Hiberno-Norse/Gael-Norse color, but I'm not really seeing a case where we'd have to use such color for outlining, or for its autonomous/influence shades. But it's likely that I miss something there : do you have some ideas about it?

Also, could Northumbria color double for Cromwell/Civil War/Separatist England?

I don't see why not, altough since Northumbria is Canadian colour in RCS, you might prefer to use Anglo-Scandinavian color which is unused in RCS (the English Civil war being astride 1648 and Westphalia's treaties).

 

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

Maybe it got rid of some years ago?

Could be. I do have an older version of RCS on my hard disk.

Strathclyde was not really influential, tough, and when not part of a Briton/Cumbric ensemble, generally more under influence (either Pict, Scottish or English).and the Clan Comyn role seems...rather limited geopolitically to the Anglo-Scottish wars.
Couldn't it be represented trough scottish autonomy/influence shades?

Couldn't this be done with an English color - influence shade?

If it's really needed, we could use a distinct Hiberno-Norse/Gael-Norse color, but I'm not really seeing a case where we'd have to use such color for outlining, or for its autonomous/influence shades. But it's likely that I miss something there : do you have some ideas about it?

Well, I seem to recall various events of English history that might call for a separate color, such as the civil war between King Stephan and Empress Mathilde after the death of Henry I, Brian Boru, and of course the ones I mentioned, but since as you said, they didn't have much geopolitical influence outside of Britain and Ireland (though the O'Dea clan held lands in both West Ireland and southwestern Scotland, so it may count as noncontiguous). since they were for the most part rebels against the English or Scottish crowns in the middle age, I think the confederate color may apply to all of them, so that no new color is needed.
Thoughts? Nitpicks? Insults?

I don't see why not, altough since Northumbria is Canadian colour in RCS, you might prefer to use Anglo-Scandinavian color which is unused in RCS (the English Civil war being astride 1648 and Westphalia's treaties).

Cool.

 

[LSCatilina]

King Stephan and Empress Mathilde after the death of Henry I

Well, giving that Stephen is the english king in facts, I don't see why a rebel color shouldn't apply for Mathilda indeed

Brian Boru

He's one of the reasons we have a Irish junior color, that's and the complex Irish/Hiberno-Norman/England situation that continues deep into the Middle Ages, with outline and shades being quite useful at least until and including the first half of the XVIth century with the Lords Deputy of Ireland.

I tought about making the distinction between Bretons at large and Brigantes and Catuvellani, but either Brittany or Northumbria or Mercia could be used without too much hassle for this.
Eventually, I tend to think that not having less than 3 and no more than 10 colors for one category is a good rule of thumb for easiness of map readability. And Western Europe (meaning France/Benelux/British Isles,even if they are divided) is already overblown, even if for good geopolitical/historical reasons.

If you really think it's needed, we could try putting "Junior Netherlands" as for trial color for junior Scotland instead? But could you give us some map exemples of what it would look?

 

[hadaril]

I love this so much! I've always like the aRCS color scheme for its simplicity, clarity, and uniformity. Would you mind if I use some of these colors in NCS? Anyways, excellent work as always, LSCatilina!

 

[LSCatilina]

Would you mind if I use some of these colors in NCS?

Help yourself : if both color schemes are compatible enough, it's good and if you can put something about where you took it, all the better.

Can I ask you a genuine question? What's the practicability of five shades of a same color? Wouldn't these tend to confuse the eyes, especially on a small scale like worlda?
It's maybe just me, but I already find dark Aquitaine dangerously close enough from Castille, and former Al-Andalus too close from Tunisia (hence the change).
I do not search to defend a three-shades models especially, but it always bugged me a bit.

 

[hadaril]

Help yourself : if both color schemes are compatible enough, it's good and if you can put something about where you took it, all the better.

Can I ask you a genuine question? What's the practicability of five shades of a same color? Wouldn't these tend to confuse the eyes, especially on a small scale like worlda?
It's maybe just me, but I already find dark Aquitaine dangerously close enough from Castille, and former Al-Andalus too close from Tunisia (hence the change).
I do not search to defend a three-shades models especially, but it always bugged me a bit.

Honestly, I share your views on the 5 shades model - the only reason I added it was due to popular demand. IMO, the 5th color is normally far to dark to be useful, and the 1st is normally far too light and too easily confused with others. However, people seem to like them, so I figured I might as well throw them in, just in case.

Thanks for letting me use some!

 

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

Well, giving that Stephen is the english king in facts, I don't see why a rebel color shouldn't apply for Mathilda indeed

OK

He's one of the reasons we have a Irish junior color, that's and the complex Irish/Hiberno-Norman/England situation that continues deep into the Middle Ages, with outline and shades being quite useful at least until and including the first half of the XVIth century with the Lords Deputy of Ireland.

Noted

I tought about making the distinction between Bretons at large and Brigantes and Catuvellani, but either Brittany or Northumbria or Mercia could be used without too much hassle for this.

Reasonable

Eventually, I tend to think that not having less than 3 and no more than 10 colors for one category is a good rule of thumb for easiness of map readability.

Noted.

And Western Europe (meaning France/Benelux/British Isles,even if they are divided) is already overblown, even if for good geopolitical/historical reasons.

More categories for Western Europe? (Maybe you have good reasons NOT to do that, but I'd like them to be explained. At what point does a map become unreadable?)

If you really think it's needed, we could try putting "Junior Netherlands" as for trial color for junior Scotland instead? But could you give us some map exemples of what it would look?

On a Worlda and maybe Q-bam scale it would be little more than recolor the various white little kingdoms in Scotland of various shades of that color, but on larger scales like V-BAM and regional maps it could be useful for a strategic maps, maybe depicting a single battle or the advancing and retreating of the front in a small area. Think a larger map of say, Stirling or the Culloden valley, and then a Worlda in a corner showing everything else.
Though maybe that flies in the face of readability and could be unpractical cause it would need a series of extra sub-categories for regional maps.

 

[LSCatilina]

More categories for Western Europe?

No, I just meant that using an actual definition for Western Europe (except separating British isles for France/Benelux as we currently do) would make appear the whole regions really overblown looking : even Germany would pale in comparison. That the categories are different may looks like we can add easily some colours, but that's not the case IMO

At what point does a map become unreadable?

When you need to zoom up to 400 or 500% to perceive two pixels of different colors, and that you need a constant look at the color scheme to understand the heck is happening : the former can be easily avoided trough not coloring irrelevant situations, the latter might be more problematic to avoid but can be limited.

and regional maps it could be useful for a strategic maps, maybe depicting a single battle or the advancing and retreating of the front in a small area.

Sure, but at this point, aren't we outside the scope of geopolitical mapping? Personally, I think VT-BAM scale is definitely too much to be really be easy to deal with in the same way than worlda or Q-BAM. Even super-QBAM are hard to deal with (I don't know if there are still updated).

Though maybe that flies in the face of readability and could be unpractical cause it would need a series of extra sub-categories for regional maps.

Well, not really, but this kind of scale prevents, IMO, to use a standardized color scheme for all of these maps.

 

[LSCatilina]

--323 - Death of Alexander
(on a basemap made by @hadaril)

r

Okay this is probably perfectible, and much so, on Americas;and even in Europe I'm rather conflicted about somethings (such as lumping Ibero-Aquitains and Iberic peoples together, or to draw or not to draw cultural lines within Gallo-Brittonic sphere). So, if you see something that bugs you, feel free.
I modified as much shoreline I could to match the historical situation (it's most obvious in China, me thinks)

 

[FancyHat]

--323 - Death of Alexander

I understand it's probably easier to recycle RCS colors for aRCS than to create new ones, but it's a little weird seeing Alexander's Empire use the Radical Russia color

 

[LSCatilina]

I understand it's probably easier to recycle RCS colors for aRCS than to create new ones, but it's a little weird seeing Alexander's Empire use the Radical Russia color

Is it?
*checks*
Hey, it is! I guess I forgot about it, since I rarely use Macedonian color (comparatively to Mercian green, which is recycled Australian green)

 

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

I understand it's probably easier to recycle RCS colors for aRCS than to create new ones, but it's a little weird seeing Alexander's Empire use the Radical Russia color

Not so strange, rather.... symbolic

 

[LSCatilina]

814 - Death of Charlemagne

Done what I could about Americas and Africa, there's probably a lot of vagueness and impresicions (at least for Amazonian chiefdoms, giving the novelty of the field, it's forgivable IMO).
Made coastline change in India and China ( @wzspring ), added south American chiefdom (and I'm ready to go berserk at the first siku I'd hear right now), proto-Ife, modified Berber borders (still not sure if I should colour Idrissid Morroco separately, but I don't see major reasons t do so)

List of changes :
- India and China coastline
- Amazonian chiefdoms
- Andean chiefdoms
- North American chiefdoms
- Proto-Ife
- Secondary sahelian states around Ghana (added or modified)
- Saharian Berbers (so far, probably not necessary coloruing Maghreb states, but...)
- Northumbrian Galloway
- Pictish Strathclyde
- Welsh petty-states
- Cornish borders