Reversed WWII? Germany and Russia swap roles.

[jeckl]

Been meaning to revive this, but I haven't found the time until now. I'm also looking for someone I can collaborate on this with. As much as I do know about Germany, Russia, and the period between 1914 to 1991, it's still quite basic, and as such this feels to me like a situation where more than one person writing the timeline would be better. It would help me learn more as well.

I've decided on Drakov and the Puchoviks being more religiously fanatical than the Nazis were, with their beliefs being an extreme and warped take on Russian Orthodoxy. I also think I'll have China and France in Russia's Axis, while Japan would be allied with the Western Allies and Italy would be a communist ally of the German Socialist Union.

I'm still not ready to start the timeline yet, though. I have some questions.

First of all, I'm going to use the start of WWI as a POD. Would it be better if Germany kept itself from invading Belgium and Britain stayed out of the war, or if the POD had Britain still enter the war on Belgium's behalf, but have the war end in a white peace? Reason why I ask is because I want to see what things would be like if the German Socialist Union inherited the African and Pacific colonies from the Kaiser, including Tsingtao and Samoa, which would all later gain independence in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s.

Second, if Rosa Luxemburg/Kurt Eisner is Lenin, who would be Stalin? I briefly thought about Ernst Thälmann, but I'd like other's opinions. Also, how do you think the aftermath of WWI and the interbellum period go in this timeline? What German analogues do you think would work for Russia, and what Russian analogues for Germany? I think I've established Drakov and the Puchoviks as coming to power in 1933 just as Hitler did in OTL.

As for the start of WWII in this timeline, I'm uncertain on how I should go about it. Should I make it a joint German-Russian invasion of Poland like OTL, or what could I do? Also, how would the German Socialist Union incorporate the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria-Hungary, Denmark, and other countries into its realm?

Lots of questions to ask before I feel comfortable in starting.

The Uk was looking for an excuse to enter the war. They may find one later.

If Germany goes communist the allies will take it's colonies. Or the UK even if it's neutral. Or A Government in Exile. They will not stay communist.

How industrialised is China?

Also this TL could have the US backing the Fascist! Seriously with the China Lobby and Americas French Sympathies I do not see many people pulling for Germany.

 

[JoeyB2198]

What if Germany somehow manages to hold on to Brest-Litovsk territory, so Russia has something to lebenstraum about?

 

[jeckl]

What if Germany somehow manages to hold on to Brest-Litovsk territory, so Russia has something to lebenstraum about?

Well B-L takes A LOT from Russia. Really even otl ww1 could give them something to "lebenstraum" about. I feel that Russia would look more towards the Mid East, Persia, Ottoman Empire. Coming into conflict with Germany (and the UK) there, I think constantinople is the "lebenstraum" of Russia historically. Also Eastern Europe, maybe religious conflict? Since the government will be very religious (we did say that didn't we?)

Also I love the idea of the Shogun type leader.

 

[Roisterer]

First of all, I'm going to use the start of WWI as a POD. Would it be better if Germany kept itself from invading Belgium and Britain stayed out of the war, or if the POD had Britain still enter the war on Belgium's behalf, but have the war end in a white peace? Reason why I ask is because I want to see what things would be like if the German Socialist Union inherited the African and Pacific colonies from the Kaiser, including Tsingtao and Samoa, which would all later gain independence in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s.

This would require a much earlier POD. The Schlieffen Plan required Germany to mobilize and fight France first, going through Belgium. Their plan was inflexible.
Japan will take most of Germany's Pacific colonies in 1914, and will be difficult to displace. Others may be up for grabs.

As for the start of WWII in this timeline, I'm uncertain on how I should go about it. Should I make it a joint German-Russian invasion of Poland like OTL, or what could I do? Also, how would the German Socialist Union incorporate the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria-Hungary, Denmark, and other countries into its realm?

A true classic never goes out of style. Alas, Poland looks like the object of partition again. How else are the Russians going to invade Germany?
If you want Germany to incorporate other places, well Austria-Hungary is the easiest after WWI - just have the civil war extend there and have them overrun. You could even get a Wrangel analog there.
The low countries and Denmark? Only as part of an Iron Curtain analog after WWII - nominally independent countries with Communist govts.

Regards

R

 

[Marc Pasquin]

If the Imperial German Government is overthrown it might flee to create a government in exile in it's colonies, could be an interesting story. I don't think a revolutionary government could hold onto the colonies who would either support a government in exile, be swallowed up by another colonial power, or go independent. Germany's colonies are too far away to follow through with a revolt.

there are precedent: French colonies during the revolution of 1789 and colonies that went with Vichy instead of the free French during WW2. As long as you can get the local authorities to go along, you shouldn't have any problem. Staying loyal might, in some circumstances, actually look like the most dangerous option.

 

[Alex1guy]

there are precedent: French colonies during the revolution of 1789 and colonies that went with Vichy instead of the free French during WW2. As long as you can get the local authorities to go along, you shouldn't have any problem. Staying loyal might, in some circumstances, actually look like the most dangerous option.

Good point actually. I suppose it would depend on the attitudes of the other colonial powers towards this communist germany.

 

[jeckl]

Good point actually. I suppose it would depend on the attitudes of the other colonial powers towards this communist germany.

I think this is key. Marc mention Vichy France, but most of their colonies were taken b other powers, Japan took Inodchina and the Uk took their mid east colonies, it was only the ones protected by their 'allies' that weren't taken ( and the UK attack Algeria with their fleet) so if the great powers are happy for communist to have land right next to their colonies it may happen. Though I doubt it.

 

[jeckl]

Could you keep Russia 'white' if the the Tsar was assassinated by a communist?

 

[Aley]

"White" who fought in the Civil War were mostly Republicans. Monarchists among them were very small.
Italian-wing fascism was possible, but not Nazism. But most likely his term would not come up, and borrowed to Italian.

 

[Sternberg]

So I'm really struggling on deciding how I want to write this timeline. To all the people that have written their own timelines, how would you plan it out and then start it? In what ways would you get or look for support? That's mainly what I'm wondering.

I also have some more questions, but this time on what the interbellum situation would have been like leading to the start of this parallel Second World War on September 1st, 1939.

Could the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (or similar treaty if the former is butterflied away) be a good analogue to OTL's Treaty of Versailles, and what can I do differently with it to better set parallels with OTL?

How would a republic in Russia following a White victory in their civil war be a good parallel to the Weimar Republic? How would Ivan Drakov and the Puchoviks consolidate their rule over Russia following Drakov's acquisition of power in 1933?

Without Mussolini out of the picture (at least in the 1920s), who would be a good analogue for Mussolini, and in what country?

I also thought more about Italy's role. Maybe there could be a civil war there that results in Italy becoming something of an analogue to Spain and its OTL civil war?

What would be good parallels with Puchovik Russia to the re-militarization of the Rhineland and the annexations of Austria, the Sudetenland/Czechoslovakia (and turning Slovakia into a puppet), and Memel?

What would be a good Danzig analogue for Russia? How could it bring about said parallel WWII?

 

[jeckl]

Could the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (or similar treaty if the former is butterflied away) be a good analogue to OTL's Treaty of Versailles, and what can I do differently with it to better set parallels with OTL?

You don't need to have Germany win the war. That would Leave France gutted and Russia weakened.

If a situation like otl post war shows up Russia could expand and take advantage. B-L took a lot of stuff from Russia, far more then Versailles took from Germany. Certainly in terms of land.

Russia would still be powerful but if you want a Communist Germany you will need either a civil war or major social change.

Have you seen Bruce's map red Germany White Russia? That has a defeated Germany go Communist with a Russian Empire (or you could go Republic).

 

[Analytical Engine]

since Russia is supposed to be germany's expy, you could have the flag use the imperial colours in some fashion.

The second flag looks good as a party flag, and the third one as a national flag.

Also, here's a mock-up of the flag I'm wanting to use for the German Socialist Union. I basically combined the flag of the USSR with the coat of arms of East Germany.

Lemme know what you think.

Hmm, I don't know. If Germany goes communist first, then it's more likely to use different symbolism to the USSR. The flag of East Germany had a hammer and dividers/compass on it, rather than a hammer and sickle - Germany was rather more industrial than Russia at this point. Maybe something with a gear motif, like the FWR from EdT's Fight and be Right!

 

[lukedalton]

Without Mussolini out of the picture (at least in the 1920s), who would be a good analogue for Mussolini, and in what country?

Try Gabriele D'Annunzio, poet, politician, aviator and leader of the Legionaries who hold Fiume in the early 20's...is a little eccentric but is the most notable name at the time.

I also thought more about Italy's role. Maybe there could be a civil war there that results in Italy becoming something of an analogue to Spain and its OTL civil war?

Can be done, if D'Annunzio try an analogue of the March of Rome amid violence between Fascist and Socialist and the King decide to crash them (D'Annunzio had lot less 'mainstream' appeal than Benny) a three way civil war can insue. Differently from Spain here the biggest probability is that both Fascist and Communist will be crushed unless they receive external help...lot of external help in OTL one of the biggest weakness of the italian left was that they were without a leader and clearly divided. It's more probable that the result will be an authoritarian regime with some trace of democracy (things can go better after sometime...maybe a couple of decades) who will act in a very isolationist way.

Regarding the PoD maybe the Bavarian Socialist Republic is lead by someone capable and from there she get the rest of the country; some unrest in France and UK can block the power to give any help to crush them.

 

[jeckl]

Could the US not enter the war and the Allies are just too warn out by the war to stop the Communists in German?

 

[Sternberg]

Sorry about me dumbening down a lot. I'll have to admit that I had some bad depressive episodes lately, and they've affected me a bit. I'm not feeling depressed right now, but it goes to show you that depression really messes with you.

Anyways, back on topic.

You don't need to have Germany win the war. That would Leave France gutted and Russia weakened.

If a situation like otl post war shows up Russia could expand and take advantage. B-L took a lot of stuff from Russia, far more then Versailles took from Germany. Certainly in terms of land.

Russia would still be powerful but if you want a Communist Germany you will need either a civil war or major social change.

Have you seen Bruce's map red Germany White Russia? That has a defeated Germany go Communist with a Russian Empire (or you could go Republic).

My idea with this is that WWI ends in a white peace, with both sides exhausted and either not having gained from their enemies or having gained some but not being able to integrate them into their country/empire effectively.

Yeah, I figured so. An area stretching from Pskov to Rostov could possibly be something like the Rhineland, while the Ukraine could be an analogue to Austria. Maybe Finland could be a good analogue to Czechoslovakia? These are all thoughts, however, and I'm still not sure about what could be a Danzig/Poland analogue to start off the Second World War.

That's what I thought. Russia would still be powerful, but a communist Germany would need to build up after its civil war. Just like the Soviet Union after the Russian Civil War, right?

Also, I haven't. Can you link me to this map, please?

 

[VictorLaszlo]

If you want a somewhat bigger and more multiethnic Union of Council Republic UCR (Bund der Räterepubliken BRR) let Germany keep Alsace-Lorraine (adds some French), North Slesvig (Danes), West Prussia, Posen (Poles) and Memelland (Lithuanians), add Austria and Bohemia to the mix and you get Czechs, Moravians, Hungarians, Slovenes, Croatians and Italians (South Tyrol and Istria stay Austrian), with the different principalities of Imperial Germany and crown lands of Austria becoming council republics: the Prussian Coucil Republic, the Bavarian Council Republic, the Council Republic of Baden, the Coucil Republic of Bohemia, the Council Republic of Tyrol etc. A good analogue to Italy might be Hungary, that goes fascist and dreams of a larger Balkans empire.

 

[zert]

Well I can sympathize with your depressive episodes and just take your time as needed to get through them. They are a bitch.

Look forward, when you are ready, to start things off. Best of luck.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Sorry about me dumbening down a lot. I'll have to admit that I had some bad depressive episodes lately, and they've affected me a bit. I'm not feeling depressed right now, but it goes to show you that depression really messes with you.

I can relate, mate. Just keep telling yourself it's just a bad moment to pass and keep your brain occupy.

 

[Sternberg]

I am aware that nobody has posted in this thread for 2 months, but I've been wanting to finally get a start on this timeline. Problem is, I've found out that I know way too little about the parts of history I need to know to make something good out of this.

Any recommendations on what I can read? Preferably online, though I can see with my mom when she's back if I can go to a local library and find something.