Revenge is Sweet

Here is my new Operation Sealion TL which details a Germany victory in the Battle of Britain, resulting in the invasion of England and US intervention...

Here ya go:

At the end of the blitz into France, Europe slowly came to the realization that German dominance of Europe only required the crossing of the English Channel and invasion of England. Many Germans, Hitler included, realized that this would bring revenge for Germany, and that the nation would do what it couldn’t during World War I.

On August 1, 1940, Hitler ordered that Battle of Britain to be launched to prepare for an invasion of Britain known as Operation Sealion. The principal objectives of the Battle of Britain would be to eliminate the Royal Air Force and destroy all Royal Navy units near the coastal zone.

When the Battle was launched, all of these objectives were achieved, much to the joy and satisfaction of Hitler. Various other operations were the planned to be executed around the same time of Operation Sealion. Operation Herkules, the invasion of Malta, Operation Felix, the invasion of Felix, and Operation Grun, the invasion of Ireland were all planned to be launched at the same time as the Battle for Britain.

Preparing for the invasion set for September 1, the 6th Army, the 9th Army, and the 16th Army took up positions along the English Channel. Paratroops were to land at Brighton and near Dover as some troops would cross the channel in a huge amphibious and air assault.
On September 1, the minefield put in the English Channel by the British had been swept away by the Germans. It was at dawn when the first paratroops arrived at their destinations and the troops at reached the English coast. The Battle of Britain was done. Let Operation Sealion begin.


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There. I'll get into more detail next post, as that was more of an intro.
 
Er...




Look, mate, you may want to brace yourself. And be prepared to do a hell of a lot more reading on Sealion. People get a little... tense when it's mentioned around here.


Still, welcome to the board.
 
Here is my new Operation Sealion TL which details a Germany victory in the Battle of Britain, resulting in the invasion of England and US intervention...
... and thus endeth another newbie.

I get the feeling you want the yanks to have an even more major role in the war than OTL... great, another yank-wank...:mad:
Not sure US intervention would do much good in 1940 though... best tank they've got would be the M2A4 light (yeah those would be nice... roughly comparable to early model Stuarts) but the rest is utter crap and would be minced meat if faced with even Panzer II.
The principal objectives of the Battle of Britain would be to eliminate the Royal Air Force and destroy all Royal Navy units near the coastal zone.

When the Battle was launched, all of these objectives were achieved, much to the joy and satisfaction of Hitler.
Only thing to say here is that at least you're honest enough to almost admit you've just handwaved away all oposition rather than doing an esl and made up some gibberish about German trawlers being marginally better armed than their RN equivilents and deciding through dodgy logic that that implies a German victory.

Now to take this apart in detail: In late July the Luftwaffe had 809 Bf109s and 310 Bf110s that could be brought to bear against the UK. A couple of weeks earlier the poms had 463 Hurricanes, 286 Spitfires, 37 Defiants and 114 Blenheims (749 single-seat monoplanes generally comparable to the '-109). So, the krauts have a minor advantage in fighters... but the RAF has more replacement aircraft coming on line (446 built in June, 496 in July and 476 in August vs the Germans averaging 156 per month for the same period); the majority of British pilots who survive being shot down will be able to return to action while most krauts will end up as POWs and if need be the poms can retrain bomber pilots to man fighters (not an option for the krauts as they've gotta use their bombers...). Thus general attrition will not be healthy for the Germans.

Even neglecting attrition the RAF has the option of withdrawing 11 Group of Fighter Command north of London and so place the airfields beyond the escort range of the '-109.

As for the RN... even if you manage to neutralise the channel based DD flotillas and light cruisers (far from a given... you're level bombers are near useless for anti-shipping work and beyond that you've only got 300-odd Stukas, which translates to perhaps 250 operational, which don't hold up too well when faced with fighters) you'll just face more coming in from the Atlantic and North Sea.
Various other operations were the planned to be executed around the same time of Operation Sealion. Operation Herkules, the invasion of Malta, Operation Felix, the invasion of Felix, and Operation Grun, the invasion of Ireland were all planned to be launched at the same time as the Battle for Britain.
"Look at me! I can randomly pull code names for a number of German operations out of a hat!"
:rolleyes:

Herkules? Said plan did not exist in 1940. That said, an italian invasion of Malta may be possible... thought still got the RN's Med fleet to bother with... and the Italian navy had a nasty habit of running whenever the RN showed up ;)
Felix? Is Franco really that daft? OTL says not. Besides that how ya going to move significant forces and seige artillary through Spain (dodgy infrustructure post-civil war) without the poms finding out? Either that or do you seriously expect whatever forces Franco could round up after the civil war to charge at the Rock again and again until the poms run out of ammo? Even if it work the poms will just trade in Gib for the Canary Islands.
Grun? With the RN on the loose said force will be deader than those involved in Seelowe itself.
Let Operation Sealion begin.
Let the RN commence target practise on Rhein River barges.
 
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My antipodean colleague gives a very nice summary. The Germans, in the circumstances of OTL, had no way of invading our island.

So, in an effort to get some productive discussion going: this idea of "revenge"; what do we all think of Hitler's supposed Anglophilia? I'm inclined to think a Hitlerian "-philia" means that he didn't actually consider us worthy of extermination and didn't think it necessary to subjugate us until later, but he actually had the same hatred and contempt for us as he did for France; but that's not based on any particularly convincing impression, just my reading of his character and the opinions of some other historians who make clear that they're opinions.
 
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Sea Mammal Burgers

... and thus endeth another newbie

Even neglecting attrition the RAF has the option of withdrawing 11 Group of Fighter Command north of London and so place the airfields beyond the escort range of the '-109.

As for the RN... even if you manage to neutralise the channel based DD flotillas and light cruisers (far from a given... you're level bombers are near useless for anti-shipping work and beyond that you've only got 300-odd Stukas, which translates to perhaps 250 operational, which don't hold up too well when faced with fighters) you'll just face more coming in from the Atlantic and North Sea.

Herkules? Said plan did not exist in 1940. That said, an italian invasion of Malta may be possible... thought still got the RN's Med fleet to bother with... and the Italian navy had a nasty habit of running whenever the RN showed up ;)
Felix? Is Franco really that daft? OTL says not. Besides that how ya going to move significant forces and seige artillary through Spain (dodgy infrustructure post-civil war) without the poms finding out? Either that or do you seriously expect whatever forces Franco could round up after the civil war to charge at the Rock again and again until the poms run out of ammo? Even if it work the poms will just trade in Gib for the Canary Islands.
Grun? With the RN on the loose said force will be deader than those involved in Seelowe itself.

Let the RN commence target practise on Rhein River barges.
Also, most people forget Gibraltar's land connection is a sand spit only half-a-mile wide! Can you say shooting gallery? The Japanese would have had an easier time taking Singapore from the sea!:D Dear six-legged friend, you have put things quite well. Franco had only been in power for what? Two years? All it would take is one major military disaster and he's got himself another civil war. Maybe not with Loyalists, but within his own army.:eek: Franco was a bastard, but he was a wise bastard.

The Luftwaffe had lots of dive bombers, but no torpedo bombers. I refuse to count the silly attempt with modifying He-111s for the job. I mean, we're not talking grumman TBF's here. Without them, half the potential damage to be metted out to the RN is lost.

As you said, moving 11 group would give them more protection from the Luftwaffe. But as Sir Laurence Olivier(Fighter Command) said to Trevor Howard(11 Group CO) "But then that's what Jerry wants us to do, isn't it?" [BATTLE OF BRITAIN]1969. Such a move yields Air Superiority over the Channel and Air Parity over Southeast England below the Thames, right where the paratroopers are going. Not a good idea unless you're REALLY losing.:(
 
I'll Have Another Order of Sea Mammal Burgers, Please...

NicholasTrotshev, I am a Yank, and even I know it can't be done. Not shouldn't. Can't. Historians are more or less in agreement that had Hitler given the OK for the preparations to begin to startup the operation he would have to do so no later than D+1 for Case Yellow with a target date to begin air operations (Eagle Day) over Britain no later than July 14th. With an invasion date of September 1st! This scenario would have worked, but absolutely no one on Earth, not even the likes of Manstein, Guderian, and Rommel thought the French would collapse so quickly. No, it was September or nothing.;)
 

MrP

Banned
Aw, Cockroach, rein it in a bit, old boy. Impossible though Sealion is, the poor chap's only lately arrived. Cut him a bit of slack, eh? :)
 
Make It Three...

In 1975 Sandhurst did a massive wargame(board) on the question of S*****n, and it was umpired by surviving West German and British officers responsible for planning the invasion or thwarting it. It was discovered to be an exercise on how to slaughter troops on the beaches. It was determined the Germans had the ability to transport 9 and supply 7 divisions in the UK. In essence, it left two divisions to forage! One thing in the Germans favor was complete surprise. The British had calculated correctly you needed to land in East Anglia if you were going to get the ports you needed and get yourself north of the Thames AND bring in the forces you would need to conquer the UK. But the German Navy had been so completely thrashed in Norway noway could they support such a landing site. They had to land at beaches between Dover and Southampton (but by September the ports themselves were well defended). The umpires ruled (if my memory serves correctly-I read the report in the early 80's) while most of the British Army units in the landing zones were smashed, the Germans basically just ran down their stocks and in the end had to surrender. Attempts to resupply by air failed due to the vulnerability of the Ju-52's which had already taken heavy losses in the initial landings. They could not resupply by sea because the Luftwaffe fell victim to mission creep. So many different critical missions to be fulfilled (ground support, maritime strikes, bomber escort, air superiority, airfield suppression, AA suppression, air interdiction of roads and rails, port suppression, bombing of critical industry, and most of all-CAP for the landing zones) all had to be done at once, but there just were not enough planes to go around. Particularly since not only could the German Navy not support the invasion, in the end they couldn't even save themselves.:D
 

MrP

Banned
It's a shame. A precis of that Sandhurst wargame used to be up online, but the site I found it at has long since died. IIRC, it said that the German troops were simply deemed to have landed. They handwaved away the Channel crossing for the sake of the game, that is.
 
Ugh! I Think The Burgers Are Repeating On Me...

It's a shame. A precis of that Sandhurst wargame used to be up online, but the site I found it at has long since died. IIRC, it said that the German troops were simply deemed to have landed. They handwaved away the Channel crossing for the sake of the game, that is.
While I've been going over the data I found that the Luftwaffe's record against warships sucked canal water. I mean, 4 DD's in all of Dunkirk?! Gimme a break! Forget what I said about a July invasion. Saul has become Paul...:eek:
 
Oh, and whoever thinks that I want to US to have a major role in the war than it really does....I'm Canadian so it doesn't matter to me...
 

MrP

Banned
I'm pretty sure that an invasion of England wouldn't work anyway, but it makes for a good story.

Aye, that's true enough. Although that might be more suited to the Writers' Forum, old boy. There are a couple of things on a Nazi-occupied UK that occur to me. Have you seen Went the day well? or read Len Deighton's SS-GB? Spoilers courtesy of Wiki at the end of that link, mind!
 
I find it rather amusing that everyone suddenly jumped this guy and started assuming he was doing an Ameri-wank and a successful Sealion before he even really started talking about the operation itself. Mr. Trotshev, please continue.
 
Oh, and whoever thinks that I want to US to have a major role in the war than it really does....I'm Canadian so it doesn't matter to me...
Sorry... I saw that you were a newbie, the dreaded S word :)D) and the yank intervention bit and assumed the worst.
 
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MrP

Banned
I find it rather amusing that everyone suddenly jumped this guy and started assuming he was doing an Ameri-wank and a successful Sealion before he even really started talking about the operation itself. Mr. Trotshev, please continue.

Everyone? I shall point a finger at you and cry "J'accuse!" ;)
 
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