Revamping my Norman Sicily TL, have a few questions

Zioneer

Banned
Hey all, I'm revamping my Norman Sicily TL with a new PoD, but I wasn't quite clear on a couple of issues that are relevant to the PoD:

1) How old were Simon of Taranto and Tancred of Lecce? Even my best English language source, John Julius Norwich's The Kingdom in the Sun, doesn't say how old either Simon or Tancred are, and I need to have them be a certain age for my purposes. I don't speak Italian or Latin, so I can't read any non-English sources without the help of Google Translate.

From my understanding, Simon was obviously old enough to be granted Taranto by his father Roger II, after Roger, Duke of Apulia's death in 1144, and he doesn't appear to have needed a regent, or at least one wasn't mentioned. Similarly, he was old enough to be a viable choice for king, when the revolt in Palermo happened in 1161. My guess is that he's anywhere from Roger, Duke of Apulia's age (b. 1118), to William I's age (b. 1131), probably older than William I. So roughly a possible birth in the 1120s?

Tancred of Lecce's age on the other hand seems to be a little easier to identify. He's the illegitimate son of Roger, Duke of Apulia, and Roger also has another illegitimate son named William, born after 1137, at least according to Wikipedia. I have seen a couple of sources like this that claim that he was over 50 when he ascended to the throne in 1189, which would put his birth sometime before 1139. This particular source claims 1137 as Tancred's birth, without any explanation. Since Roger of Apulia was born in 1118, my guess is that he didn't have a child until he was at least 14, which would be 1132, and more likely around 16-20, which would make the 1137 date reasonable.

2) If Roger II's last legitimate son William had died before he did, was there any clear successor, or would it be a "free-for-all", so to speak? How would the succession be determined? Who was the closest relative to the Rogerian branch of the Hautville family? Related: Would bastard sons be considered? Roger's Sicily seemed to treat bastards slightly better than the rest of Europe at this time.

3) Similarly, how old was Maio of Bari? Wikipedia says he first signed a royal document as a scribe in 1144, which would probably mean he was in his late teens, early to mid twenties in 1144, right? And obviously he was old enough to have a grown daughter to marry to Matthew Bonnellus before 1160, when he was murdered.

4) Lastly, how realistic to have some dispossessed nobility from another kingdom/duchy/etc settle in Sicily? Who would be the most likely to settle there?
 

Zioneer

Banned
As an update, I've been satisfied with just estimating the numbers for the first question and third question, and it appears that Tancred was too young to really become king in 1154, while Simon was probably in his thirties or late twenties in 1154, thus being old enough, if the question came up. It sounds reasonable to have Maio in his 40s or 50s in 1154.

On the second question, I'm still not sure what would happen if William the Bad had died before Roger II (and/or before having children), I'd like help determining what could happen.

On the fourth question, I'm wondering what kind of dispossessed nobles Sicily could harbor. Byzantine rebel exiles, maybe some Venetians, Hungarians, even exiles from the Pope's territory?
 

Zioneer

Banned
I was also wondering if anyone wanted to help me brainstorm my plans for the TL in PMs, I'm having trouble articulating what I want to do with the TL.
 
On the second question, I'm still not sure what would happen if William the Bad had died before Roger II (and/or before having children), I'd like help determining what could happen.

Well, in that case Roger's only remaining son would be the illegitimate Simon of Taranto, so I'd assume he would be the favorite. Roger had no other living legitimate children aside from the posthumously born Constance. Emma of Lecce, Tancred's mother, was apparently born around 1120, so I'd guess Tancred was born in the neighborhood of 1140. He must have been at most a teenager when Roger died, certainly younger than Simon. Youth doesn't mean you can't be a pretender - the barons briefly proclaimed the hapless Roger IV as king against his father William when Roger was only nine years old - but barring a major baronial revolt willing to use Tancred as a figurehead I suspect Simon will gain the throne.

That's assuming, of course, that Roger still dies at the same time. I suspect if he lasts just a few months longer and dies after Constance is born, things might get more complicated, although my money would still be on the adult Simon over an infant girl, even despite Simon's illegitimacy.

On the fourth question, I'm wondering what kind of dispossessed nobles Sicily could harbor. Byzantine rebel exiles, maybe some Venetians, Hungarians, even exiles from the Pope's territory?

Sicily was AFAIK more of a source of exiles than a haven for them, what with disaffected barons fleeing into the arms of the Germans. I can't see that changing much unless Barbarossa wins big in his Italian wars somehow, in which case one can imagine plenty of Guelfs taking refuge in the anti-imperial south. A royal court that continues in the religious/cultural pluralism of Roger's administration might attract some renegade Greeks (or Muslims, for that matter), but I'm not sure what would really create a large influx of such people.
 
Well, in that case Roger's only remaining son would be the illegitimate Simon of Taranto, so I'd assume he would be the favorite. Roger had no other living legitimate children aside from the posthumously born Constance. Emma of Lecce, Tancred's mother, was apparently born around 1120, so I'd guess Tancred was born in the neighborhood of 1140. He must have been at most a teenager when Roger died, certainly younger than Simon. Youth doesn't mean you can't be a pretender - the barons briefly proclaimed the hapless Roger IV as king against his father William when Roger was only nine years old - but barring a major baronial revolt willing to use Tancred as a figurehead I suspect Simon will gain the throne.

That's assuming, of course, that Roger still dies at the same time. I suspect if he lasts just a few months longer and dies after Constance is born, things might get more complicated, although my money would still be on the adult Simon over an infant girl, even despite Simon's illegitimacy.



Sicily was AFAIK more of a source of exiles than a haven for them, what with disaffected barons fleeing into the arms of the Germans. I can't see that changing much unless Barbarossa wins big in his Italian wars somehow, in which case one can imagine plenty of Guelfs taking refuge in the anti-imperial south. A royal court that continues in the religious/cultural pluralism of Roger's administration might attract some renegade Greeks (or Muslims, for that matter), but I'm not sure what would really create a large influx of such people.

What about Robert marrying Constance?
 
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