Who would be the successful head of Russia if the Whites won?

  • Alexander Kolchak

    Votes: 43 40.6%
  • Anton Denikin

    Votes: 18 17.0%
  • Pyotr Wrangel

    Votes: 24 22.6%
  • Nikolai Yudenich

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • Someone else

    Votes: 19 17.9%

  • Total voters
    106
Poland was not strong enough to dominate such union, and from Lithuanian or Ukrainian POV Poles would not be better than Russians. Independent Ukraine could easily turn into German ally-Germans have more to offer and do not care about Lwów/Lviv.
 
Somewhere I read that the Whites had problems because most of their soldiers deserted (not necessarily to the Reds). So it's not a miracle that the Reds won - more the fact that the Whites still achieved so much.
 
Poland was not strong enough to dominate such union

And?

from Lithuanian or Ukrainian POV Poles would not be better than Russians.

Compared to Russians that refused even internal autonomy?

I think the Whites would make the Poles look like an attractive option in comparison.

Of course, it is possible that the Whites might not even be able to muster the strength to even be able to threaten Ukraine (which is sure to be number 1 on their list of territories to "restore order" to after the Moscow-St Petersburg core).

Independent Ukraine could easily turn into German ally-Germans have more to offer and do not care about Lwów/Lviv.

That could get interesting.

fasquardon
 
I think the most likely outcome of a collapse of the Bolsheviks is the Balkanization of Russia, as the principal white warlords fight among themselves and against the various separatist states on Russia's fringes.

Eventually, someone would gain a pyrrhic victory and unify the Russian core... only for the Great Depression to kick in, shutting off foreign credit and export markets. As people will all point the finger on who's to blame in the same direction, said white warlord's administration will most likely collapse, and a new round of fighting will commence...
 
I think the result would end in a stalemate instead of getting the whole of Belarus and Ukraine, Poland gains western parts of Ukraine and Belarus instead just as it did in OTL.
 
I think the most likely outcome of a collapse of the Bolsheviks is the Balkanization of Russia, as the principal white warlords fight among themselves and against the various separatist states on Russia's fringes.

Eventually, someone would gain a pyrrhic victory and unify the Russian core... only for the Great Depression to kick in, shutting off foreign credit and export markets. As people will all point the finger on who's to blame in the same direction, said white warlord's administration will most likely collapse, and a new round of fighting will commence...
If the Great Depression does kick in, I feel like it would be similar to Germany, fascism rising to power.
 
And Kolchak would still end up being dead, when the Whites were doing actually good in the European part, Kolchak and his armies were literally retreating from the Red Army in Siberia. Given the fact that Denikin and Yudenich end up successful and capture the cities of Petrograd and Moscow, the Bolsheviks are gonna be in a way bigger panic and use all of their efforts to flee towards Siberia with Kolchak highly likely being betrayed by the Czechoslovaks and handed over to the Reds earlier than OTL. I don't get why people in the voting section are thinking Kolchak would be the ruler and him actually prior before his death resigned from office and gave the rest of the government control to Denikin. So in my thoughts, Denikin would end up being the leader of this alternative Russia.
 
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I'm still curious about what would happen to Caucasus and Turkey? Since the Ottoman Empire still collapses and a war breaks out with Greece, what would White Russia's stance be? Would it sign some kind of agreement to take over Caucasus as the Bolsheviks did in OTL?
 
I'm still curious about what would happen to Caucasus and Turkey? Since the Ottoman Empire still collapses and a war breaks out with Greece, what would White Russia's stance be? Would it sign some kind of agreement to take over Caucasus as the Bolsheviks did in OTL?
I'm gonna assume there would be attempts at retaking the parts of the Caucasus that have declared themselves independent and the Whites might back an independent Armenia against an independent Turkey but I don't know how successful these attempts will be.
 
I'm gonna assume there would be attempts at retaking the parts of the Caucasus that have declared themselves independent and the Whites might back an independent Armenia against an independent Turkey but I don't know how successful these attempts will be.
It depends, but I think the Whites are gonna be more concerned about Poland's expansion into Ukraine and Belarus, so they might see agreement with Mustafa necessary to keep the most of the Caucasus under control by dividing Armenia. I'm not sure if Russia would go far to piss off the Entente and lend them supplies in the war as the Soviet Union did in OTL. So we might either see an outcome stalemate between Turkey and Greece or the same result in OTL. I'm not too sure what other factors caused the Greeks to lose.
 
It depends, but I think the Whites are gonna be more concerned about Poland's expansion into Ukraine and Belarus, so they might see agreement with Mustafa necessary to keep the most of the Caucasus under control by dividing Armenia. I'm not sure if Russia would go far to piss off the Entente and lend them supplies in the war as the Soviet Union did in OTL. So we might either see an outcome stalemate between Turkey and Greece or the same result in OTL. I'm not too sure what other factors caused the Greeks to lose.
How do you think the Turkish War of Independence will go ITTL?
 
How do you think the Turkish War of Independence will go ITTL?
Not too sure. From what I heard, the Greeks were already exhausted prior before the war and the country itself was politically divided and during the war, many things occurred in the favor for Kemal. France had agreements to protect Syria and Italy supported Turkish nationalists since they were mad about not getting territorial gains. So pretty much, there were a lot of factors that made the Greeks lose besides the Soviet support. Of course, the Greeks were successful in this war since they captured many important parts of the land. Every time the Turks did attack the defensive position they always ended up falling back. Since there was no place to retreat, they all just piled up into huge defensive that made it hard for the Greeks to break through. Of course, they ended up retreating from Anatolia because again, Greece was facing internal problems at home and they chose the campaign of going deep into Asia Minor which made them hard to defend. Even if the Soviets don't exist to support, Greece would still be economically weak to wage a complete offensive towards Turks despite them not gaining Soviet support. Russia would most likely deal with Poles since they at that time wanted expansion into Ukraine and Belarus, they wouldn't be powerful to completely focus on helping out Armenia against Turks. In fact, they would just rather take as much as former Russian Empire lands as they could without a huge struggle. Russia and Turkey would just agree to divide Armenia in exchange for neutrality. They wouldn't see any value or more reasonable purpose to help out the Greeks since the Whites already had their own problems to deal with. Greeks still retreat from the peninsula and the borders are still established as they did in OTL.
 
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I'm still wondering how long would a post-war military junta last in Russia? And how would the elections be? Would the parliamentary elections and the presidential be separate or in one like the general election?
 
I'm still wondering how long would a post-war military junta last in Russia? And how would the elections be? Would the parliamentary elections and the presidential be separate or in one like the general election?
I'm thinking that White Russia doesn't start politically liberalizing until the 80s and/or 90s but might retain somewhat of an authoritarian nature in order to keep Russia from splintering into different states.
 
Not too sure. From what I heard, the Greeks were already exhausted prior before the war and the country itself was politically divided and during the war, many things occurred in the favor for Kemal. France had agreements to protect Syria and Italy supported Turkish nationalists since they were mad about not getting territorial gains. So pretty much, there were a lot of factors that made the Greeks lose besides the Soviet support. Of course, the Greeks were successful in this war since they captured many important parts of the land. Every time the Turks did attack the defensive position they always ended up falling back. Since there was no place to retreat, they all just piled up into huge defensive that made it hard for the Greeks to break through. Of course, they ended up retreating from Anatolia because again, Greece was facing internal problems at home and they chose the campaign of going deep into Asia Minor which made them hard to defend. Even if the Soviets don't exist to support, Greece would still be economically weak to wage a complete offensive towards Turks despite them not gaining Soviet support. Russia would most likely deal with Poles since they at that time wanted expansion into Ukraine and Belarus, they wouldn't be powerful to completely focus on helping out Armenia against Turks. In fact, they would just rather take as much as former Russian Empire lands as they could without a huge struggle. Russia and Turkey would just agree to divide Armenia in exchange for neutrality. They wouldn't see any value or more reasonable purpose to help out the Greeks since the Whites already had their own problems to deal with. Greeks still retreat from the peninsula and the borders are still established as they did in OTL.
So the Turkish Nationalists win similarly to OTL?
 
I'm thinking that White Russia doesn't start politically liberalizing until the 80s and/or 90s but might retain somewhat of an authoritarian nature in order to keep Russia from splintering into different states.
This isn't a Red Victory, it's an alternate history where fascism becomes more prominent in Russia in the 1930's. Not to mention that we would see World War 2 break out and the defeat of Fascist Russia. I'm talking about post-civil war years where parliamentary democracy would be attempted prior before the Great Depression. Even if there is authoritarianism established, it wouldn't be complete autocratic or tyrantful as the Soviet Union was which lasted 70 years. We're talking about White Victory timeline here, not the history of the Soviet Union.
 
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