Result of a White Victory in the Russian Civil War?

[Shadow1080]

What if the White Army was more unified and managed to defeat the Reds? Let's say Denikin manages to take Moscow since he had a lot of talented officers and support from the Allies, not to mention he was the closest to Moscow. What would happen to the rest of generals such as Wrangel, Kolchak, and Yudenich? How would they defeat the rest of the Red Army and what would they do after their victories? Not to mention that Kolchak declared himself as the "supreme leader". Would they all or at least some get along for at least a short while? Or they'd all go against one another immediately right after the defeat of the Communists similarly to Chinese Civil War? And who out of all these generals would be victorious? What government would Russia be? How would this affect the rest of the decades to come and a possible WW2? What would happen to Russia from these events?

 

[twistedirregular]

If the Whites somehow become more unified, there'd probably be a coalition of White leaders (Kolchak, Wrangel and Yudenich maybe) that heads what will most likely turn into a military dictatorship where Kolchak may purge any White leaders that he views as a threat. There's also many other possibilities if White Russia barely manages to stay intact - breaking apart in a scenario similar to Warlord China or embracing a fascist movement that's similar to the Mladorossi. If the monarchy is restored in the future, then either Grand Duke Nicholas or Cyril are the ones to become the next (nominal) Tsar at the head of a new Russia while a military government controls things behind the scenes. I don't know if there'd be another Russian Civil War but there would potentially be many attempted assassinations and purges of one another if the coalition of White leaders is shaky enough, especially if Kolchak aims to remain Supreme Leader. I'm not sure if World War 2 would happen as IOTL but who knows?

 

[Shadow1080]

If the Whites somehow become more unified, there'd probably be a coalition of White leaders (Kolchak, Wrangel and Yudenich maybe) that heads what will most likely turn into a military dictatorship where Kolchak may purge any White leaders that he views as a threat. There's also many other possibilities if White Russia barely manages to stay intact - breaking apart in a scenario similar to Warlord China or embracing a fascist movement that's similar to the Mladorossi. If the monarchy is restored in the future, then either Grand Duke Nicholas or Cyril are the ones to become the next (nominal) Tsar at the head of a new Russia while a military government controls things behind the scenes. I don't know if there'd be another Russian Civil War but there would potentially be many attempted assassinations and purges of one another if the coalition of White leaders is shaky enough, especially if Kolchak aims to remain Supreme Leader. I'm not sure if World War 2 would happen as IOTL but who knows?

Wouldn't Denikin do something about it? Like prevent Kolchak from seizing power since he'd be in Siberia and not in Moscow? Even if the Whites won, what makes you think they'd still get along and let Kolchak rule over them?

 

[twistedirregular]

Wouldn't Denikin do something about it? Like prevent Kolchak from seizing power since he'd be in Siberia and not in Moscow? Even if the Whites won, what makes you think they'd still get along and let Kolchak rule over them?

You're probably right about that, Denikin may seize power from Kolchak or at least dominate whatever military junta is established in the aftermath of this White victory.

 

[twistedirregular]

@Shadow1080, how do the Whites win the Russian Civil War in the first place?

 

[Enigmajones]

It might be enough to increase Communism's following in Germany. Without the threat of the Soviets bringing down communism..it might just work out with more Soviet Republics in Germany and Europe as a whole.

 

[Shadow1080]

@Shadow1080, how do the Whites win the Russian Civil War in the first place?

Let's say all the White generals still each other with suspicion but they temporarily during the war at least cooperate more in order to focus on the Reds which they successful beat Trotsky and Lenin. With the Communist threat ceased for at least a while, the White army generals begin to look more at each other with disagreements just as it happened in our timeline which made the Whites lose in the first place. How would it all escalate? A war over total power or cooperation with each other? If war then who'd come out on top of the generals? If cooperation who'd be the main leader that the White generals willing to allow?

 

[twistedirregular]

It might be enough to increase Communism's following in Germany. Without the threat of the Soviets bringing down communism..it might just work out with more Soviet Republics in Germany and Europe as a whole.

I kinda doubt it as the whole October Revolution will probably still see communist uprisings in Europe being crushed by terrified Entente members.

 

[twistedirregular]

Let's say all the White generals still each other with suspicion but they temporarily during the war at least cooperate more in order to focus on the Reds which they successful beat Trotsky and Lenin. With the Communist threat ceased for at least a while, the White army general begin to look more at each other with tensions just as it happened in our timeline which made the Whites lose in the first place.

I'm not sure about this, considering there were many other problems such as a lack of a political program for anti-Bolshevik forces to rally around and little to no coordination in battle with one another. Perhaps the White victory still comes where the Red Army is more disorganized or something along those lines.

 

[Shadow1080]

I'm not sure about this, considering there were many other problems such as a lack of a political program for anti-Bolshevik forces to rally around and little to no coordination in battle with one another. Perhaps the White victory still comes where the Red Army is more disorganized or something along those lines.

This is a map of which general gets to control land would look like. Do you think all these generals would let Kolchak rule over them or one of them, like Denikin, would resist at the first hand before Kolchak gains influence?
Yes, this map is from 1930's. I used the Soviet Union land to show how It would look like if the Whites won the civil war right after.

 

[thatsbunkers]

Would be very bad for Jewish people. The Ukrainian Peoples Republic (The pro whites in Ukraine) had large scale pogroms and if Denikin comes to power in Russia he was very antisemetic too

 

[Anchises]

Probably something similar to Spain.

Large scale killings of Democrats/Jews/Communists/Socialists/Cowards/Traitors/German Agents/....

If the Whites win they would make damn sure that the Reds don't come back.

After that they would split the bounty and make bank. I doubt that we would see large scale Civil War between the White Generals. Only 1 or 2 of them will emerge as serious contenders for the "throne", one that holds Moscow and/or Petrograd and maybe someone else with many troops loyal to him and good connections to the Entente.

Most of the Generals would be satisfied with a cozy post in the Junta imho.

In the end we would probably see a Puppet Tsar and a Junta in the shadows or an outright military dictatorship. The Generals had no vision, their goal was to restore the old order. So we would probably see a restauration of the landowners, the reinstallation of a harsher Okrana and an even more oppressive state in general.

 

[Shadow1080]

Probably something similar to Spain.

Large scale killings of Democrats/Jews/Communists/Socialists/Cowards/Traitors/German Agents/....

If the Whites win they would make damn sure that the Reds don't come back.

After that they would split the bounty and make bank. I doubt that we would see large scale Civil War between the White Generals. Only 1 or 2 of them will emerge as serious contenders for the "throne", one that holds Moscow and/or Petrograd and maybe someone else with many troops loyal to him and good connections to the Entente.

Most of the Generals would be satisfied with a cozy post in the Junta imho.

In the end we would probably see a Puppet Tsar and a Junta in the shadows or an outright military dictatorship. The Generals had no vision, their goal was to restore the old order. So we would probably see a restauration of the landowners, the reinstallation of a harsher Okrana and an even more oppressive state in general.

So Kolchak becomes the leader of this alternate Russia?

 

[Halagaz]

Wouldn't Denikin do something about it? Like prevent Kolchak from seizing power since he'd be in Siberia and not in Moscow? Even if the Whites won, what makes you think they'd still get along and let Kolchak rule over them?

I mean, Denikin and the other White generals actually recognized Kolchak as their leader. There wasn't too much room for a conflict, at least not a violent conflict (politics and intrigues are a whole different thing of course).

 

[Max Sinister]

But not enough that Kolchak and Denikin would have tried to unite their forces, which seems like the smartest move.

 

[Shadow1080]

Alright, but how'd Kolchak hold out for the years to come? Wouldn't the Great Depression affect Russia greatly and another possible revolution? If so, who'd gain influence? Democrats, Fascists or Communists? Would they successfully topple Kolchak's regime in early 1930's or he'd put it down?

 

[twistedirregular]

Alright, but how'd Kolchak hold out for the years to come? Wouldn't the Great Depression affect Russia greatly and another possible revolution? If so, who'd gain influence? Democrats, Fascists or Communists? Would they successfully topple Kolchak's regime in early 1930's or he'd put it down?

You'd probably see some kind of fascist movement take power in Russia.

 

[Belsima]

One important thing to take note of is the 1905 Revolution and the Peasant's revolts against the Bolsheviks themselves; surely a White Russia would suffer the same, if not worse, again? Especially given the upcoming Great Depression mentioned above. I think Russia would fall apart again following any actual reason, with probably a second phase to the civil war.

 

[twistedirregular]

This is a map of which general gets to control land would look like. Do you think all these generals would let Kolchak rule over them or one of them, like Denikin, would resist at the first hand before Kolchak gains influence?
Yes, this map is from 1930's. I used the Soviet Union land to show how It would look like if the Whites won the civil war right after.

Wouldn't Kolchak control more of the Russian Far East and parts of Central Asia on the map? Denikin and Wrangel might be able to cement their rule in European Russia before Kolchak has the chance to arrive in European Russia which means they might resist Kolchak's influence.

 

[twistedirregular]

One important thing to take note of is the 1905 Revolution and the Peasant's revolts against the Bolsheviks themselves; surely a White Russia would suffer the same, if not worse, again? Especially given the upcoming Great Depression mentioned above. I think Russia would fall apart again following any actual reason, with probably a second phase to the civil war.

What could a Second Russian Civil War look like?