Restoration of the Great Ming: A Tianqi Timeline

For being a dynasty that didn't kill other claimants to the throne, Ming didn't suffer much externally. But oh boy with plague around a dynastic rabble rousing will only make things more.....difficult. But since this timeline is about Ming, then I'm sure the author would find ways around to prop it up.

OTOH, how strong was Confucian ideologues amongst the general mass?
 
Hmmmm . . . Certainly an interesting take on the twilight of the Ming Dynasty.
According to my maternal grandfather, once the Wanli Emperor decided to kick his feet up and stare at the fans, it was pretty much all over for the Ming.
Curiously, my maternal grandfather's surname is the same as that of the Ming Emperors and my mother's family is from the same place as the Hongwu Emperor.
According to the old records (now destroyed or lost), my mother's family are distant descendants of the Hongwu Emperor who left Anhui for greener rice paddies right around when the Qing Dynasty fell.

Another interesting bit is the reason behind Zheng He's early expeditions.
Supposedly, he was assigned a secret mission by the Yongle Emperor in his early expeditions: find out what happened to the the deposed Jianwen Emperor (Yongle's nephew).
Zheng He found him living as a Buddhist monk in Fujian, wearing a set of Buddhist monk robes that the Hongwu Emperor (who was a Buddhist monk for a time) left him as a "escape route". The two struck a deal where Zheng He would report his death to the Yongle Emperor as long as the Jianwen Emperor stayed hidden and did not seek the Dragon Throne. Both sides held up their ends of the deal, and the Jianwen Emperor lived out the rest of his days in peace as a Buddhist monk in Fujian.
 
According to the old records (now destroyed or lost), my mother's family are distant descendants of the Hongwu Emperor who left Anhui for greener rice paddies right around when the Qing Dynasty fell.
What an honour is to have you here then, your majesty! :p
According to my maternal grandfather, once the Wanli Emperor decided to kick his feet up and stare at the fans, it was pretty much all over for the Ming.
Curiously, my maternal grandfather's surname is the same as that of the Ming Emperors and my mother's family is from the same place as the Hongwu Emperor.
Kinda makes me wonder how many descendants of royalty there are around here, it's surprising that self-insert timelines havent taken that as premise, like "your gran-gran-grandpa was the Emperor of Guacamole, your mission is to save his reign" with the protagonist returning to the altered modern day only to find that they're the heir to the throne now(with a butterfly net over their birth)
 
pOlygamy and multiple marriages kind of devalues princely prestige anyways, I found a grandson of Norodom Sihanouk on reddit
And let's not get into how many descendants of Charlie & Gengis there are

Still, it's pretty cool to see the connection between those historical figures and people who exist in modern day, makes it all feel more real
 
What an honour is to have you here then, your majesty! :p
Thanks!
However, as I'm related to the Ming Dynasty via my mother's side, I'd only be some sort of provincial military commander or provincial magistrate at most. Likely a provincial military commander battling it out with Wokou pirate bands in the Jiangsu coastline.

Kinda makes me wonder how many descendants of royalty there are around here, it's surprising that self-insert timelines havent taken that as premise, like "your gran-gran-grandpa was the Emperor of Guacamole, your mission is to save his reign" with the protagonist returning to the altered modern day only to find that they're the heir to the throne now(with a butterfly net over their birth)
Sounds interesting.
Except I would not want to touch the Hongwu with a 10000 li pole.
Man made 1984 a reality in 1384.

However, he was also quite a realist and proven correct on other issues.
Such as list of 14 countries not to invade (which Yongle violated when he started his own "Vietnam War"). Later Ming emperors recognized the wisdom of Hongwu and kept away from them.
And his saying that while "the Wokou were stinging flies, the northern horse barbarians were a disease of the heart and lungs". Again, he was right when Ming got crunched by northern horse barbarians.
Last but not least, Hongwu recognized the slow poison that were eunuchs and kept them largely powerless.
Never trust unnatural creatures.
He also made sure to keep the families of empresses away from power as well.

pOlygamy and multiple marriages kind of devalues princely prestige anyways, I found a grandson of Norodom Sihanouk on reddit
Indeed.
It also creates massive succession crises and succession wars.
 
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Last but not least, Hongwu recognized the slow poison that were eunuchs and kept them largely powerless.
Never trust unnatural creatures.
Every monarchy had endless problems with corrupt and scheming courtiers. Were eunuchs any more prone to corruption and scheming than other courtiers, or was it just more popular to blame them because they were perceived as unnatural?
 
For being a dynasty that didn't kill other claimants to the throne, Ming didn't suffer much externally. But oh boy with plague around a dynastic rabble rousing will only make things more.....difficult. But since this timeline is about Ming, then I'm sure the author would find ways around to prop it up.

OTOH, how strong was Confucian ideologues amongst the general mass?
Yeah! I'm trying to figure out a path. Gotta hope our viewpoint characters are lucky. Which doesn't mean that they have unlimited plot armor.

As for Confucian ideologies...well, it's complicated, depending on how you define it. But there was definitely an orthodox way of looking at things, and there were schools set up to teach things in the correct way, and doing well in such studies was how you got into the civil service examinations. Of course, there were other ways of making a name for oneself, and there were (and are) plenty of minority groups who held mostly to their own customs.

Hmmmm . . . Certainly an interesting take on the twilight of the Ming Dynasty.
According to my maternal grandfather, once the Wanli Emperor decided to kick his feet up and stare at the fans, it was pretty much all over for the Ming.
Curiously, my maternal grandfather's surname is the same as that of the Ming Emperors and my mother's family is from the same place as the Hongwu Emperor.
According to the old records (now destroyed or lost), my mother's family are distant descendants of the Hongwu Emperor who left Anhui for greener rice paddies right around when the Qing Dynasty fell.

Another interesting bit is the reason behind Zheng He's early expeditions.
Supposedly, he was assigned a secret mission by the Yongle Emperor in his early expeditions: find out what happened to the the deposed Jianwen Emperor (Yongle's nephew).
Zheng He found him living as a Buddhist monk in Fujian, wearing a set of Buddhist monk robes that the Hongwu Emperor (who was a Buddhist monk for a time) left him as a "escape route". The two struck a deal where Zheng He would report his death to the Yongle Emperor as long as the Jianwen Emperor stayed hidden and did not seek the Dragon Throne. Both sides held up their ends of the deal, and the Jianwen Emperor lived out the rest of his days in peace as a Buddhist monk in Fujian.
Oh, nice! Yeah, the Wanli Emperor was the beginning of the end. So hopefully his grandson (and/or his loyal advisors) manage to chart a way through all this.

I mentioned the theory about Zheng He in the 1629 chapter!

What an honour is to have you here then, your majesty! :p

Kinda makes me wonder how many descendants of royalty there are around here, it's surprising that self-insert timelines havent taken that as premise, like "your gran-gran-grandpa was the Emperor of Guacamole, your mission is to save his reign" with the protagonist returning to the altered modern day only to find that they're the heir to the throne now(with a butterfly net over their birth)
I am genuinely planning a (1900s) Chinese history timeline in which my great-grandfather will appear as a minor character.

Also, one of my more distant ancestors, Yang Jisheng, is mentioned a few times in Restoration of the Great Ming (as a long-dead martyr, guardian deity, and literary character).

So -- maybe we'd see something a little like that! Although it'd be less of a self-insert and more like my great-grandfather (or a character who shares his name) reacting to the lunacy of the main character.

Thanks!
However, as I'm related to the Ming Dynasty via my mother's side, I'd only be some sort of provincial military commander or provincial magistrate at most. Likely a provincial military commander battling it out with Wokou pirate bands in the Jiangsu coastline.


Sounds interesting.
Except I would not want to touch the Hongwu with a 10000 li pole.
Man made 1984 a reality in 1384.

However, he was also quite a realist and proven correct on other issues.
Such as list of 14 countries not to invade (which Yongle violated when he started his own "Vietnam War"). Later Ming emperors recognized the wisdom of Hongwu and kept away from them.
And his saying that while "the Wokou were stinging flies, the northern horse barbarians were a disease of the heart and lungs". Again, he was right when Ming got crunched by northern horse barbarians.
Last but not least, Hongwu recognized the slow poison that were eunuchs and kept them largely powerless.
Never trust unnatural creatures.
He also made sure to keep the families of empresses away from power as well.


Indeed.
It also creates massive succession crises and succession wars.
Every monarchy had endless problems with corrupt and scheming courtiers. Were eunuchs any more prone to corruption and scheming than other courtiers, or was it just more popular to blame them because they were perceived as unnatural?
I'd argue that the eunuchs weren't dangerous because they were "unnatural" but because they developed into an intermediary class that controlled access to the emperor. There were other non-eunuch courtiers who became infamously corrupt -- Heshen being perhaps the arch-example (albeit one from the Qing dynasty, which will not exist ITTL). Giving an example that some people ITTL might still remember -- the Wanli Emperor, early in his reign, depended on his Grand Secretary Zhang Juzheng, who was honored for doing a good job while alive but who was posthumously accused of embezzlement and all sorts of crimes -- his family was disgraced, a lot of their wealth was seized. Now, in that case, and maybe also in the case of Heshen, you have the question: did these people really do all those crimes, or were they just victims of political persecution? Maybe Heshen really did do it but Zhang Juzheng is a lot more questionable. There's a bit in Ray Huang's 1587, a Year of No Significance where the now-adult Wanli Emperor suddenly remembers his old mentor and sends out an inquiry as to the value of the treasure seized from the man's family, or something along those lines. (I recommend that book highly. Stumbled across it in a university library years ago. If you want a good view of the Ming dynasty -- not written by me! -- then Ray Huang really put it down well in that book.)

Anyways -- ITTL the pro-eunuch faction was mostly purged with the death of Wei Zhongxian (as they were IOTL, except much later), and the current emperor has expressed his displeasure with the practice of poor families creating eunuchs in the hopes of serving him -- all that does is maim boys (best-case) and, worst-case, produces a bunch of disaffected young men with nothing to lose.
 
Eunuchs were useful because they couldnt screw your wife and multiply the number of bastards at the court, so they made for perfect household workers

The issue as I see it is that they always ended up in administration positions that they didnt belong and owning too many estates that allowed them to enrich themselves as a parasite class instead of being mere castrated domestic caretakers that brought public concerns to the crown when need be
I am genuinely planning a (1900s) Chinese history timeline in which my great-grandfather will appear as a minor character.

Also, one of my more distant ancestors, Yang Jisheng, is mentioned a few times in Restoration of the Great Ming (as a long-dead martyr, guardian deity, and literary character).

So -- maybe we'd see something a little like that! Although it'd be less of a self-insert and more like my great-grandfather (or a character who shares his name) reacting to the lunacy of the main character
That's so goals!
 
Sounds interesting.
Except I would not want to touch the Hongwu with a 10000 li pole.
Man made 1984 a reality in 1384.

However, he was also quite a realist and proven correct on other issues.
Such as list of 14 countries not to invade (which Yongle violated when he started his own "Vietnam War"). Later Ming emperors recognized the wisdom of Hongwu and kept away from them.
And his saying that while "the Wokou were stinging flies, the northern horse barbarians were a disease of the heart and lungs". Again, he was right when Ming got crunched by northern horse barbarians.
Last but not least, Hongwu recognized the slow poison that were eunuchs and kept them largely powerless.
Never trust unnatural creatures.
He also made sure to keep the families of empresses away from power as well.
.
Hong Wu problem is that he a man deeply traumatised by his own upbringing imo. Like being a begger in Late yuan dynasty isn’t the most fun occupation at all and for better or worse shape his character into being a paranoid guy who distrust everyone
 

kholieken

Banned
The issue as I see it is that they always ended up in administration positions that they didnt belong and owning too many estates that allowed them to enrich themselves as a parasite class
These is impossible to avoid. People who are close to power always benefitted. Historically we have concubines, father-in-law, nursemaid, bureaucrats, generals, relatives, etc pull that off. Eunuchs is nothing special in their corruption.
 
These is impossible to avoid. People who are close to power always benefitted. Historically we have concubines, father-in-law, nursemaid, bureaucrats, generals, relatives, etc pull that off. Eunuchs is nothing special in their corruption.
You know what, that's fair. And to be sure, ITTL the people not-currently-in-power, the former "eunuch party" (i.e. associates and allies of Wei Zhongxian), might well allege the same thing of the current folks who have the emperor's favor. I mean, the Tianqi Emperor's current inner circle aren't all angels (and they sometimes have conflicting objectives). So -- anyhow, I gotta put in an update for 1645, and then maybe some more narrative content.
 
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