View attachment 707491
Could someone mock up better versions of these flags? basically color swapped version of the modern csa flag with the stars being gold and outside the saltire. Still should have a white border on the now red saltire. Also I'm not sure but if you have an idea for how to make 8 stars look more like a cross then that would be cool too. the first flag with four stars is supposed to look like a cross with the top 3 stars close to the saltire and the bottom star close to the edge of the flag.
flagforforum.png
 
Having spent quite a bit of time fascinated by Harry Turtledove's ATLANTIS series (I blame that exceptionally bold hook, of the US Eastern seaboard drifting away to become a sub-continent sized New Zealand - in the sense of serving as an ark for species quite unlike anything in Europe or North America as we know it), I'm now amusing myself trying to work out civic flags for the various Metropolises of the United States of Atlantis.

Might I please ask some advice from the assembled experts and enthusiasts?


The essential details can be found on the Turtledove Wiki ...

... and the map I'm currently using as a reference, while not canonical, may be found here (As well as on deviantArt.com).


The cities that I'm currently trying to work out flags for are:-

- New Hastings: Established in the 15th Century (1450s AD) by natives of Sussex who decided that all this Bastard Feudalism was getting a bit out of hand and that a life spent in screaming wilderness (Atlantis doesn't have wolves, so no howling wilderness) was preferable to life at the front lines of the Wars of the Roses; Firmly established its preference for the quiet life by refusing to take a part in the Freetown/Cosquer Anglo-French vendetta and by shooting down the first (quite possibly the last) exiled aristocrat to try making himself King of Atlantis.

Seems to have spent a reasonably quiet few centuries (though there's a hint at local Catholics slowly being converted or displaced as Anglo-Protestants come overseas and spread down from the north which suggests that 'quiet' was not necessarily the same thing as peaceful) before becoming National Capital during the heady days of the War for Atlantean Freedom (Interrupted by British occupation during the war, but resumed afterwards), a status briefly reclaimed during the middle of the 19th Century - just in time for the National Government to be rather thoroughly embarrassed by the Great Insurrection (While New Hastings was not itself occupied, an unfortunately large portion on the army and both Ruling Consuls were captured).

Given that New Hastings seems to be characterised as old, inclined to prefer the quiet life, but historically-important nonetheless I'd suspect the flag would be quite plain (Though preferably in a way that suggests "We're too awesome to make a fuss about it" rather than "Too poor to afford better"); it also seems likely the city's foundation year - 1452 - would be included in the design quite prominently.

Given the key role of archers in putting down the 'Wicked Earl' who sought to make himself King of Atlantis, it seems logical to suppose that an archer (probably of the Robin Hood type) would appear on the local flag, as symbol of the Yeoman Spirit in the local residents - possibly opposite a minuteman of the Atlantean Revolution, to suggest the debt of inspiration.


- Cosquer: Somewhat-belatedly established by the Breton fisherman who sold a certain Englishman the directions to Atlantis in return for a cargo of salt fish (in 1458, six years after the first English settlement was established on the Grand Island), Cosquer became French not long thereafter (the Duchess of Brittany marrying the King of France) and appears to have remained the spiritual heart of French Atlantis even after it was conquered by the British circa 1761 (though Anglophone settlers appear to have left something of a mark, my suspicion is that Cosquer remains more Québec than Saint Louis).

Although unlike Québec, it seems to have risen in rebellion against the British during the Revolutionary War (probably because the British Army suffered one of it's biggest pastings on Conquer soil - or, just possibly, because Freetown was very prominent on the other side).

Basically a sort of 'Quebec, but in the Upper South' it seems logical to suggest incorporation capital-F French symbolism into the civic/state flag (Though to set it apart from Quebec, one might use specifically Breton symbolism); alternatively, the local standard might well include silver fish - as an allusion to the fact that, while the English were first to settle, they wouldn't even have known the place existed without a Breton sailorman (Since one imagines that locals share the motto 'Je me souvien' with Quebec, a flag with a cross and four fish in the quarters of the field might do very well).


- Freetown: Founded in the same year as Cosquer and within spitting distance thereof, the local settlers appear to have been aggressively patriotic Englishmen (emphasis on the 'aggressive') to the point of planning for a war with the French (well, Bretons) almost before they'd been able to wash off the salt from their sea-passage, prevented only by the diplomacy of New Hastings' founding father (leaving Freetown cursing the French and their New Hastings countrymen).

To say the least, the peace didn't last; it seems highly likely Cosquer and Freetown spent the next three hundred years or so making life shorter for each other, pursuing their own local rivalry through their mother countries' many quarrels - despite Freetown remaining pigheadedly Catholic even after the English Reformation, their rock solid record of hating Frenchman apparently balancing out any outrage at the aforesaid development - culminating in the French & Atlantean War/Seven Years War, in which Freetown withstood a French siege and (apparently) acted as the springboard for the British Army that conquered French Atlantis once and for all.

Then things got worse - devoutly Royalist during the Atlantean Revolution (despite being seized by the Revolutionaries, Freetown was recovered by the British and held out as a hotbed of Loyalists until the end of the conflict), despite nearby Cosquer acting as the staging ground for French forces arriving in the soon-to-be United States of Atlantis. As a part of the United States of Atlantis, Freetown is only noted to have been a slave state that abolished the institution of slavery on its soil, but proudly continued the city's long tradition of being awkward sods by producing a senatorial delegation in which some voted for, some against the abolition of slavery on a national level after the Great Insurrection.

Given that Freetown is the part of Atlantis I've thought about most often (possibly because it's never been the focus of a story, but keeps popping up to be awkward in everyone else's - though quite probably because of it's apparently powerful loyalty to first the English and then the British Crown, even in extremis) I have slightly clearer notions of what the local flag ought to look like than for most of the other cities: One imagines the dominant colours as red & white (per the cross of Saint George AND the flag of Kent).

I'm tempted to suggest a white horse would feature in the design - another nod to Kent and to the white horse of Hanover - but this might be a little too monarchical to fly in the United States of Atlantis; I do believe that whatever final design is settled on ought to feature the motto 'Nulli Secundus' 'Second to None' (As a nod to it's status as the second English settlement in Atlantis, it's tendency to pick fights where it isn't really necessary AND the peculiar mix of civic insecurity & civic megalomania that makes it so interesting - in my imagination this is, eternally, a city that apparently mass-produces Arrogant Elite Teams that mysteriously falter in the face of Plucky Underdogs every season, in sports and all too often in Real Life).


- Hanover (formerly Stuart): It bears pointing out that the city's name was apparently going to be 'Tudor' but reports of Queen Elizabeth's death and King James' ascension came just in time for them to change the signs & ingratiate themselves to their new ruling dynasty; it also bears pointing out that this would mean that Stuart renamed itself despite having carried that name for almost a century (Which suggests either a guilty conscience or chameleonic tendency in the local population; one remains disappointed that the city did not rename itself 'Radcliff' after the Atlantean Revolution, in honour of the local 'George Washington').

The national capital - at least after everyone got bored with the quiet life in New Hastings and went looking for the Big City - Hanover appears to have returned that honour to New Hastings only after some great fire left it in need of a rebuild in the mid-19th Century (and only briefly, at that). Having effectively conquered (ahem "Liberated") Avalon from Pirate Control with the help of the Royal Navy in the 1660s, during the 1770s Hanover found itself needing liberation from British occupation - a feat achieved by the aforesaid local 'George Washington' - and has continued to look forward, always forward ever since.

I leave to your imagination the amount of mischief a local Tammany Hall could have got up to with the national government within easy reach.

Somewhat to my embarrassment, 'New York, D.C.' hasn't really given me a very specific mental image for its flag - I do, however, have the notion that the local motto would be "Nec aspera terent" ("No difficulty daunts me") as a subtle nod to it's name - that being the old motto of the House of Hanover, appearing on grenadier caps of the Seven Years War, amongst other places; it also occurred to me that, since Victor Radcliff's family come from the area, this city might well use some variation on the Radcliffe (Same name, different branch) coat of arms, which are rather natty and would fit the 'Onwards & Upwards' character of Hanover quite neatly.

Assuming, of course, that the two bars were flipped to head upward from left to right, rather than downward (Also, a star or two might not go amiss!).


Those familiar with the series may well ask "Where's Avalon? All this rambling about fictional cities and nobody mentions the one run by pirates?" to which I can only say "One coast at a time, fellow enthusiast!" (After all, I didn't even mention New Redon, Croydon, Saint Denis or Penzance - and not just because the latter two are only barely mentioned in the novels themselves; an audience only has so much time & attention to spare, after all).;)
 
Please allow me to apologise if that post went on a little too long - I've been thinking about this quite a while, so it COULD have been longer.:biggrin:
 
Having spent quite a bit of time fascinated by Harry Turtledove's ATLANTIS series (I blame that exceptionally bold hook, of the US Eastern seaboard drifting away to become a sub-continent sized New Zealand - in the sense of serving as an ark for species quite unlike anything in Europe or North America as we know it), I'm now amusing myself trying to work out civic flags for the various Metropolises of the United States of Atlantis.

Might I please ask some advice from the assembled experts and enthusiasts?


The essential details can be found on the Turtledove Wiki ...

... and the map I'm currently using as a reference, while not canonical, may be found here (As well as on deviantArt.com).


The cities that I'm currently trying to work out flags for are:-

- New Hastings: Established in the 15th Century (1450s AD) by natives of Sussex who decided that all this Bastard Feudalism was getting a bit out of hand and that a life spent in screaming wilderness (Atlantis doesn't have wolves, so no howling wilderness) was preferable to life at the front lines of the Wars of the Roses; Firmly established its preference for the quiet life by refusing to take a part in the Freetown/Cosquer Anglo-French vendetta and by shooting down the first (quite possibly the last) exiled aristocrat to try making himself King of Atlantis.

Seems to have spent a reasonably quiet few centuries (though there's a hint at local Catholics slowly being converted or displaced as Anglo-Protestants come overseas and spread down from the north which suggests that 'quiet' was not necessarily the same thing as peaceful) before becoming National Capital during the heady days of the War for Atlantean Freedom (Interrupted by British occupation during the war, but resumed afterwards), a status briefly reclaimed during the middle of the 19th Century - just in time for the National Government to be rather thoroughly embarrassed by the Great Insurrection (While New Hastings was not itself occupied, an unfortunately large portion on the army and both Ruling Consuls were captured).

Given that New Hastings seems to be characterised as old, inclined to prefer the quiet life, but historically-important nonetheless I'd suspect the flag would be quite plain (Though preferably in a way that suggests "We're too awesome to make a fuss about it" rather than "Too poor to afford better"); it also seems likely the city's foundation year - 1452 - would be included in the design quite prominently.

Given the key role of archers in putting down the 'Wicked Earl' who sought to make himself King of Atlantis, it seems logical to suppose that an archer (probably of the Robin Hood type) would appear on the local flag, as symbol of the Yeoman Spirit in the local residents - possibly opposite a minuteman of the Atlantean Revolution, to suggest the debt of inspiration.


- Cosquer: Somewhat-belatedly established by the Breton fisherman who sold a certain Englishman the directions to Atlantis in return for a cargo of salt fish (in 1458, six years after the first English settlement was established on the Grand Island), Cosquer became French not long thereafter (the Duchess of Brittany marrying the King of France) and appears to have remained the spiritual heart of French Atlantis even after it was conquered by the British circa 1761 (though Anglophone settlers appear to have left something of a mark, my suspicion is that Cosquer remains more Québec than Saint Louis).

Although unlike Québec, it seems to have risen in rebellion against the British during the Revolutionary War (probably because the British Army suffered one of it's biggest pastings on Conquer soil - or, just possibly, because Freetown was very prominent on the other side).

Basically a sort of 'Quebec, but in the Upper South' it seems logical to suggest incorporation capital-F French symbolism into the civic/state flag (Though to set it apart from Quebec, one might use specifically Breton symbolism); alternatively, the local standard might well include silver fish - as an allusion to the fact that, while the English were first to settle, they wouldn't even have known the place existed without a Breton sailorman (Since one imagines that locals share the motto 'Je me souvien' with Quebec, a flag with a cross and four fish in the quarters of the field might do very well).


- Freetown: Founded in the same year as Cosquer and within spitting distance thereof, the local settlers appear to have been aggressively patriotic Englishmen (emphasis on the 'aggressive') to the point of planning for a war with the French (well, Bretons) almost before they'd been able to wash off the salt from their sea-passage, prevented only by the diplomacy of New Hastings' founding father (leaving Freetown cursing the French and their New Hastings countrymen).

To say the least, the peace didn't last; it seems highly likely Cosquer and Freetown spent the next three hundred years or so making life shorter for each other, pursuing their own local rivalry through their mother countries' many quarrels - despite Freetown remaining pigheadedly Catholic even after the English Reformation, their rock solid record of hating Frenchman apparently balancing out any outrage at the aforesaid development - culminating in the French & Atlantean War/Seven Years War, in which Freetown withstood a French siege and (apparently) acted as the springboard for the British Army that conquered French Atlantis once and for all.

Then things got worse - devoutly Royalist during the Atlantean Revolution (despite being seized by the Revolutionaries, Freetown was recovered by the British and held out as a hotbed of Loyalists until the end of the conflict), despite nearby Cosquer acting as the staging ground for French forces arriving in the soon-to-be United States of Atlantis. As a part of the United States of Atlantis, Freetown is only noted to have been a slave state that abolished the institution of slavery on its soil, but proudly continued the city's long tradition of being awkward sods by producing a senatorial delegation in which some voted for, some against the abolition of slavery on a national level after the Great Insurrection.

Given that Freetown is the part of Atlantis I've thought about most often (possibly because it's never been the focus of a story, but keeps popping up to be awkward in everyone else's - though quite probably because of it's apparently powerful loyalty to first the English and then the British Crown, even in extremis) I have slightly clearer notions of what the local flag ought to look like than for most of the other cities: One imagines the dominant colours as red & white (per the cross of Saint George AND the flag of Kent).

I'm tempted to suggest a white horse would feature in the design - another nod to Kent and to the white horse of Hanover - but this might be a little too monarchical to fly in the United States of Atlantis; I do believe that whatever final design is settled on ought to feature the motto 'Nulli Secundus' 'Second to None' (As a nod to it's status as the second English settlement in Atlantis, it's tendency to pick fights where it isn't really necessary AND the peculiar mix of civic insecurity & civic megalomania that makes it so interesting - in my imagination this is, eternally, a city that apparently mass-produces Arrogant Elite Teams that mysteriously falter in the face of Plucky Underdogs every season, in sports and all too often in Real Life).


- Hanover (formerly Stuart): It bears pointing out that the city's name was apparently going to be 'Tudor' but reports of Queen Elizabeth's death and King James' ascension came just in time for them to change the signs & ingratiate themselves to their new ruling dynasty; it also bears pointing out that this would mean that Stuart renamed itself despite having carried that name for almost a century (Which suggests either a guilty conscience or chameleonic tendency in the local population; one remains disappointed that the city did not rename itself 'Radcliff' after the Atlantean Revolution, in honour of the local 'George Washington').

The national capital - at least after everyone got bored with the quiet life in New Hastings and went looking for the Big City - Hanover appears to have returned that honour to New Hastings only after some great fire left it in need of a rebuild in the mid-19th Century (and only briefly, at that). Having effectively conquered (ahem "Liberated") Avalon from Pirate Control with the help of the Royal Navy in the 1660s, during the 1770s Hanover found itself needing liberation from British occupation - a feat achieved by the aforesaid local 'George Washington' - and has continued to look forward, always forward ever since.

I leave to your imagination the amount of mischief a local Tammany Hall could have got up to with the national government within easy reach.

Somewhat to my embarrassment, 'New York, D.C.' hasn't really given me a very specific mental image for its flag - I do, however, have the notion that the local motto would be "Nec aspera terent" ("No difficulty daunts me") as a subtle nod to it's name - that being the old motto of the House of Hanover, appearing on grenadier caps of the Seven Years War, amongst other places; it also occurred to me that, since Victor Radcliff's family come from the area, this city might well use some variation on the Radcliffe (Same name, different branch) coat of arms, which are rather natty and would fit the 'Onwards & Upwards' character of Hanover quite neatly.

Assuming, of course, that the two bars were flipped to head upward from left to right, rather than downward (Also, a star or two might not go amiss!).


Those familiar with the series may well ask "Where's Avalon? All this rambling about fictional cities and nobody mentions the one run by pirates?" to which I can only say "One coast at a time, fellow enthusiast!" (After all, I didn't even mention New Redon, Croydon, Saint Denis or Penzance - and not just because the latter two are only barely mentioned in the novels themselves; an audience only has so much time & attention to spare, after all).;)

- New Hastings: Maybe use the banner of arms of suxsex but invert the colours so six blue martlets on a gold field instead of six gold martlets on a blue field
- Cosquer: the traditional are Ermine (black spots of white) so since you want to include a silver fish, you could a flag that is divided between a section that is white with black spots and another that is black with a white fish.
- Freetown: you could simply invert the colours of the St. Georges cross with arms in the middle like Nova Scotia
- Hannover: just design a COA for this Victor Radcliff and assume his arms were turned into a banner of arms.
 
Can someone edit the map of America, but with the State of Sequoyah and its capital Muskogee added in and New Mexico absorbing Arizona? Thank you
Map-of-USA-1550x1122.jpg
Sequoyah_1905_web.jpg
 
@JohnWarrenDailey
Interesting.
What should be done in the caucasus mountains and the eastern border of Iran? I trust you don't want a several-kilometer cliff face.
For bodies of water which were filled in, such as the Baltic or the Gulf of St. Lawrence, what should elevation be?
How tall is the Carpathian Plateau?
Your verbal instructions indicate that all of mainland India should be lowered by one color, except the Himalayas, which will be raised by one. However, the line you drew appears to be quite a bit south of the Himalayas. Which should we trust?
Which color scheme are you using? How much is "one color"? (I would personally recommend X2; the 8K-BAM topographic map is already in this color scheme, so that would be easy).
I assume that the instructions which stretch across the former Middle East refer to the Mediterranean Islands.
Edit: Is this an equirectangular projection?
 
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What should be done in the caucasus mountains and the eastern border of Iran? I trust you don't want a several-kilometer cliff face.

You're right, I don't. The Caucasus are unchanged, but as for "Iran"'s eastern coast, I imagine either gentle sea cliffs or sea-level beaches.
For bodies of water which were filled in, such as the Baltic or the Gulf of St. Lawrence, what should elevation be?

Preferably, a flat Baltic Plain and Saint Lawrence, as the instruction map, is a part of the Appalachian Red Line.
How tall is the Carpathian Plateau?

All I know is this--not as tall as Tibet!
Your verbal instructions indicate that all of mainland India should be lowered by one color, except the Himalayas, which will be raised by one. However, the line you drew appears to be quite a bit south of the Himalayas. Which should we trust?

Could you clarify on that? I don't understand the question.
Which color scheme are you using? How much is "one color"? (I would personally recommend X2; the 8K-BAM topographic map is already in this color scheme, so that would be easy).

Actually, it'd depend on which color scheme you would be using, if you're still interested. For example, this map has a seven-color scheme. This map, nine. This map, eleven. This one has gone as far as an eighteen-color scheme.
I assume that the instructions which stretch across the former Middle East refer to the Mediterranean Islands.

You assumed correct.
Edit: Is this an equirectangular projection?

Yes, it is.
 
This here is a plain, simple, good old-fashioned map of our planet:

enter image description here

As everyone here would know, land makes up only 29% of the planet's surface. But suppose for a moment that someone has pulled the plug off the ocean to drain enough of the ocean's waters to raise the percentage of land to exactly 50%, not a fraction more. Using our current knowledge of ocean bathymetry, what would a map of such an Earth look like?

Quick disclaimer--I'm not asking for how this change would affect the atmosphere, the ocean currents, the geography, the climate--that's all for later. Simply what the plain, basic, good old-fashioned map would look like. That's it.
I made a quick map based on the Youtube video, it's probably not 50/50 but it's the most land I could do without making it look stupid.
 

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Hello. :)

I have a request for a map for a TL idea.

Australia is in the place of Antarctica and Antarctica in the place of Australia, though it's closest point to the Torres Strait is at far away as OTL Australia was, which means that the whole Continent of Antarctica lays a bit more to the South that OTL Australia did, just because it wouldn't fit otherwise in Australia's position, seeing as Antarctica is a nearly twice as big as Australia OTL.

ac059dc27d38ac469c5fb64b387c632c.jpg


This also means that New Zealands position is a bit shifted and not too much to the South, otherwise they would freeze but instead a bit more to the east, more into the Polynesian Pacific. New Zealand too stays as far away from. Antarctica in its closest as it does in OTL from Australia in its closest point.

I don't know if this is possible to do, but I just wanted to ask here because I am shit at map making.
 
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Hello. :)

I have a request for a map for a TL idea.

Australia is in the place of Antarctica and Antarctica in the place of Australia, though it's closest point to the Torres Strait is at far away as OTL Australia was, which means that the whole Continent of Antarctica lays a bit more to the South that OTL Australia did, just because it wouldn't fit otherwise in Australia's position, seeing as Antarctica is a nearly twice as big as Australia OTL.

View attachment 709456

This also means that New Zealands position is a bit shifted and not too much to the South, otherwise they would freeze but instead a bit more to the east, more into the Polynesian Pacific. New Zealand too stays as far away from. Antarctica in its closest as it does in OTL from Australia in its closest point.

I don't know if this is possible to do, but I just wanted to ask here because I am shit at map making.

It's not perfect, but I tried to put Antarctica on Australia, I had to move some islands like papua and bougainville to fit the continent:)
 

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I'd like to request, if possible
The US Republican Party logo and election symbol in blue (preferably a much less cyan-ish blue than current Democratic logo)
The US Democratic Party logo and election symbol in Dixiecrat orange
 
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