Republican Spain Navy goes to Soviets

Or Italian subs can sink some enroute
And Italian frogmen damage others while they are anchored in a neutral port

Would Italian's attack soviet war ships? Doesn't that risk escalation. Already the Soviets are saying they will mobilise for Czechslovakia

75%+ of the Crews are killed in the Purge, ships contribute to the Great Patriotic war in basically no useful way shape or form.

Most of the crews will end up in the Gulag.

This seems likely for the crew but really the ships wouldn't be useful stopping axis supplies?
 
This seems likely for the crew but really the ships wouldn't be useful stopping axis supplies?

No spare parts, no ammunition for the guns, no crew trained for their operation (As most of the crew is dead or in the Gulag for being spies). It's entirely possible the ships will just rot at the wharf if not get sunk early in the war.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
In fact all I have read is that Spanish refugees (thought mostly kids "Los niños de Moscú") were very well treated. It may be different in this case but that is not a certainty.
 
Turkey won't allow them to pass. With or without Soviet flag. They won't really be ready for a war with the Soviets but they have their right in defending the straits against a potential threat. The Spanish won't try to enforce a pass and move elsewhere.
 
Turkey won't allow them to pass. With or without Soviet flag. They won't really be ready for a war with the Soviets but they have their right in defending the straits against a potential threat. The Spanish won't try to enforce a pass and move elsewhere.

The Spanish presumably to go here would have Soviet agents on board, so they might force a pass, I don't know where they'd go from there, Syria? If the flags are Soviet what grounds does Turkey have to refuse them? If they do why wouldn't Stalin just sail the Black Sea Fleet there? Will Turkey fire on the Spanish ships?

You say a potential threat but it's simply an addition to an already present threat.

If Turkish do refuse and the Soviets back down will this bring Turkey into the Axis as its more antagonistic with the Soviets, who will be reinforced in their belief that they they need to control the straits?
 
Turkey won't allow them to pass. With or without Soviet flag. They won't really be ready for a war with the Soviets but they have their right in defending the straits against a potential threat. The Spanish won't try to enforce a pass and move elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure the Turks are obligated to allow Soviet ships to pass through the straits. They did so in the past and unilaterally refusing passage to Soviet shipping would probably be an act of war. And considering the small size and general age and obsolete status of the surviving Spanish Republican navy it doesn't really alter the balance of power that much.
 
The Spanish presumably to go here would have Soviet agents on board, so they might force a pass, I don't know where they'd go from there, Syria? If the flags are Soviet what grounds does Turkey have to refuse them? If they do why wouldn't Stalin just sail the Black Sea Fleet there? Will Turkey fire on the Spanish ships?

You say a potential threat but it's simply an addition to an already present threat.

If Turkish do refuse and the Soviets back down will this bring Turkey into the Axis as its more antagonistic with the Soviets, who will be reinforced in their belief that they they need to control the straits?

There is no need to make the Soviet Black Sea fleet stronger. Without a strong threat from the Sea the straits are safe which is important.

The Straits are per 1936, by Montreaux treaty under Turkish control. They have the right to refuse the Spanish Fleet even if it covered as Soviet. They have backing from the British as it is regarding the Soviets and the Mediterranean. There are potential risks but Turkish rights to refuse are backed.

Considering Turkey followed a strict neutral policy. Only an unavoidable war may move them to a side.
 
I'm pretty sure the Turks are obligated to allow Soviet ships to pass through the straits. They did so in the past and unilaterally refusing passage to Soviet shipping would probably be an act of war. And considering the small size and general age and obsolete status of the surviving Spanish Republican navy it doesn't really alter the balance of power that much.

They aren't per Montreaux. And it is not convoy shipping that is halted which is an act of war if halted. This is a foreign navy. And if the obsolete navy is nothing Turkey should be worried about then the same navy is no reason for war.
 
Let's see what we're talking about.

Cruisers:
Mendez Nunez -- 6 152mm guns (6x1), 12 533mm torpedo tubes (4x3)
Libertad -- 8 152mm guns (2x3, 2x1), 12 533mm torpedo tubes (4x3)
Miguel de Cervantes -- 8 152mm guns (2x3, 2x1), 12 533mm torpedo tubes (4x3)

14 destroyers of various classes, not all of which may be in service or able to make the passage.

6 submarines. These were mostly modeled after the American Cachalot class

So, three cruisers, all ten to fifteen years old, several destroyers and submarines of like age. The Red Navy was hard up for ships back then (they were using the Tsarist battleships, which were worn out and had not been all that great when built) and any port in a storm.
 
If the flags are Soviet what grounds does Turkey have to refuse them? If they do why wouldn't Stalin just sail the Black Sea Fleet there? Will Turkey fire on the Spanish ships?
The ships are Spanish and their crews are in rebellion against the internationally recognised government of Spain despite whatever flag they are flying.
 
The ships are Spanish and their crews are in rebellion against the internationally recognised government of Spain despite whatever flag they are flying.

The USSR didn't recognise Franco so as far as they're concerned this is an internationally legal transfer of ships from one nation to another.

There is no need to make the Soviet Black Sea fleet stronger. Without a strong threat from the Sea the straits are safe which is important.

The Straits are per 1936, by Montreaux treaty under Turkish control. They have the right to refuse the Spanish Fleet even if it covered as Soviet. They have backing from the British as it is regarding the Soviets and the Mediterranean. There are potential risks but Turkish rights to refuse are backed.

Considering Turkey followed a strict neutral policy. Only an unavoidable war may move them to a side.

The Straits are under Turkish control but they still have to let Black Sea nations pass through during peacetime according to the convention. So if the Soviets move their ships to protect the Spanish ships, or if the Spanish ships run the straits then Turkey will fire on the Soviets? How will the Soviets respond?

'The Black Sea powers - states with coastlines on the Black Sea - were allowed to transit capital ships (but not aircraft carriers) provided they remained in compliance with the rest of the Convention, which included limiting the number of capital ships of any power in the Straits to one at any given time. Black Sea powers are also allowed to transit submarines through the Straits so long as said submarines have been constructed, purchased or sent for repair outside the Black sea. This is essentially for the benefit of Russia, whose submarine fleets are deployed between three coasts - two of which lie outside the Black Sea.'

The navy isn't amazing but its a significant increase in power for the USSR especially in the Black Sea, at the end of the day its free metal and free sailors (even if many go to the gulags). If their navy was like this during the Siege of Sevastopol Axis shipping would be severely hampered and the siege could be aided by more than just a few ships.
 
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