Republican aid in the Spanish Civil War
- Thread starter Fenwick
- Start date
ASB for Britain I think - you'd need a strong Labour government for it to be even possible. France might have, but I think would have needed moral support from Britain. If they had supported the Republic in a meaningful way, it'd be hard to envisage a Fascist victory. Probably over in a year.
It might be interesting if French support for republican forces in Spain led to a war between France and Italy.
You don't need sucha a huge involvement to change things. If the French would have been more willing, providing planes, tanks, ammunition, the republicans could have hold longer. At the end of the war, the republican army still had sizeable forces in Levante and South east Spain. They came very close -few months- to the objective of the last republican leaders, to hold out until war in Europe began and the allies were forced to take sides on the SCW.
Britain and France refused to allow sales of armsand material to the legitimte, democratic government of Spain but turned a blind eye to German and Italian itervention. The US remained 'neutral' which in fact meant it refused to allow the sale of arms to the legitimate government in Madrid, this favouring the fascists.
It was a cowardly and morally bunkrupt policy by the democracies that foreshadowed appeasment.
No doubt if the allies had intervened to the extent of selling arms and munitions to the Republic, the rebels would have been defeated.
It was a cowardly and morally bunkrupt policy by the democracies that foreshadowed appeasment.
No doubt if the allies had intervened to the extent of selling arms and munitions to the Republic, the rebels would have been defeated.
Larrikin
Banned
SCW
And just why would the govts of GB and France want to supply military aid and funding to the nun rapers. Forget all the crap that has been poured out over the years by the 'intelligentsia' on how terrible the Nationalists were, actually go and check up on the number and nature of atrocities committed by the Republicans.
By the time of the SCW the govts of both GB and France were well aware of the millions that had been killed in the name of Communism in the USSR, and would have been in no mood to aid them in Spain. Not even a strong Labour govt in the UK would have gone for that - in fact Labour despised the Communists.
The only reason for afore mentioned Govts to wish for a Republican victory woulde 20/20 prescience in regards to the progess of the coming war. Remeber that 40 years after the end of the SCW Franco handed over to a functioning democracy, not something any domestically imposed communist regime has ever managed.
And just why would the govts of GB and France want to supply military aid and funding to the nun rapers. Forget all the crap that has been poured out over the years by the 'intelligentsia' on how terrible the Nationalists were, actually go and check up on the number and nature of atrocities committed by the Republicans.
By the time of the SCW the govts of both GB and France were well aware of the millions that had been killed in the name of Communism in the USSR, and would have been in no mood to aid them in Spain. Not even a strong Labour govt in the UK would have gone for that - in fact Labour despised the Communists.
The only reason for afore mentioned Govts to wish for a Republican victory woulde 20/20 prescience in regards to the progess of the coming war. Remeber that 40 years after the end of the SCW Franco handed over to a functioning democracy, not something any domestically imposed communist regime has ever managed.
psst the Republicans weren't "communists". They were allied with a few communist groups but the core was just centre-left.
And Britain today is one of the richest countries in the world!- Something no other English speaking, Europe based, nation with a monarch has managed!
RAF Volunteers
I always wondered what may of happened if the RAF allowed pilots to volunteer to fly in the SCW, like the condor legion did, but as in previous threads the Repulicans side had strong soviet ties, even going as for a shooting international brigade volunteers for retreating, maybe the POD might be a Soviet-Japanese border war happening at the same time, and the Repulicans being closer to the Western left as apposed to Maxist left. I'm sure bored fighter pilots would take unofficial leave for the adventure in fighting in spain.
I always wondered what may of happened if the RAF allowed pilots to volunteer to fly in the SCW, like the condor legion did, but as in previous threads the Repulicans side had strong soviet ties, even going as for a shooting international brigade volunteers for retreating, maybe the POD might be a Soviet-Japanese border war happening at the same time, and the Repulicans being closer to the Western left as apposed to Maxist left. I'm sure bored fighter pilots would take unofficial leave for the adventure in fighting in spain.
The republicans were a democratic and legitimate governement. There were nuns raped and priests killed, but by uncontrolled communist and anarchist militias. My own grandfather, a capitan in the republican army, was almos shot by a patroll of anarchists. The guilt lays here in those who started the war and left the governement helpless. What you call crap is evidence of a sistematic and brutal represion by a fascist governement against its own population. Even today we are finding unmarked massed graves with as many as 90.000 people shot without trial.
[/QUOTE]By the time of the SCW the govts of both GB and France were well aware of the millions that had been killed in the name of Communism in the USSR, and would have been in no mood to aid them in Spain. Not even a strong Labour govt in the UK would have gone for that - in fact Labour despised the Communists.[/QUOTE]
Well, they had no such scruples when helping Stalin himself only two years later. Or letting him grab half Europe in 1945. Also, communists did not hold the spanish governement. They grew stronger when it became clear that the only help to the Republic came from the USSR.
[/QUOTE]The only reason for afore mentioned Govts to wish for a Republican victory woulde 20/20 prescience in regards to the progess of the coming war. Remeber that 40 years after the end of the SCW Franco handed over to a functioning democracy, not something any domestically imposed communist regime has ever managed.[/QUOTE]
Franco handed over nothing. He died in his bed being a dictator and ordering executions. It's only after his death that the progressive (and realistic) wing of his movement decided it was time to join the european democracies. And some of them tried to avoid it in 1981. If anything, it is a shame that we were not able to get rid of him while alive.
And the reason of british actions in 1936-39 is that they did not care about democracy or human rights in other countries. Franco was OK for them as long as he was no threat to their strategic interests, as was Salazar or any other dictator. Mussolini could very well have been a british ally.
How are the Republicans going to pay for these arm deliveries? The Spanish national gold treasure is already in the SU.
The only way I see it working is if the British/French start cooperating on Day one of the SCW. Then it's also a logical action for the Republicans to send their gold to a neutral country (for example Mexico) instead of their sole large supplier of arms.
Hitler saw the SCW as a sideshow and the longer it lasts, the better.
To trade for his limited military help and not having anything else anymore to sell, Franco more or less 'gave' him several mines.
The Italians on the other hand, who have large amounts of troops in country, without any real pay for them can only afford such heavy support for a short while, before their economy goes bankrupt.
So, if the British/French manage to keep the Republicans alive for long enough, they'll win. At least, untill WWII breaks out and Hitler's forces don't stop marching untill they reach Gibralter, which falls after a few weeks.
Ludicrous. Check EVERY academic source, and you can see that Nationalist atrocities were far higher in number than Republican. Not that it matters - both sides were bad, but I would rather live in Republican territory if I were transported back there. If you're honest, then so would you (unless you are actually a fascist).
Most of the lurid tales of nun raping and priest killing were almost all propaganda stories put out by the Nationalist government. There were a few incidents of that kind (mostly church burnings) but teh fact that journalists were freely circulating in Republican territory, and were tightly controlled in Nationalist territory, meant that Republican crimes gained much higher coverage in the international media.
Anyway, I can't add much on what the other guys have said - try reading up on it. Anthony Beevor's book on the subject is a good start (and he's hardly a communist).
It was a private plane I believe. The Royal Navy did do all they could to aid the Nationalists in their transprort of men across to Spain. The commanders in Gibraltar allowed the Nationalists use of telephone connections as well.
Republican Spain asked the France and the United kingdom before turning to the Soviets for help.
The Republican's did not send their gold reserves to the Soviets until two months after the Civil War began. Also it was not the entire reserve, it started at 26.5% and then went up as the war dragged on. Plus the gold went through France, so the French and British easily could get their hands upon Spainish gold as payment.
And all this talk of Communist's is misleading. First there was not less then six fractions making up the Republican forces: Loyalists to the Government, Anarchists, Social Libertarians, Trotskist's, Stalinists, and Socalists. The Communists became stronger and stronger as more Soviet aid came in, I am perfectly confidant that other factions would become stronger if Britian and France where assisting the Republican forces.
What's an ossifer? Oh, you mean officer. Is ossifer a word too? If not then it should be!
I don't know about the MI6 guy - I'd have to check up on it, but I doubt it was with the direct sanction of the British government.
Both sides performed atrocities but I think that the Nationalists did some more (if only because of more opportunity).
At least that's Beevor's opinion on this in his book (admitting that's the only thing I read about the SCW
) and he seemed pretty objective to me.Agree on that. That's why I said the Brits/French would have to start cooperating with the Reps on day one, if only to prevent the Communists from controlling the Reps completely.
The infighting between Rep forces was probably a lot worse than on the Nationalist side and hurt their cause a lot.
The Communist Reps got their dominant position by pulling tricks like not supplying Rep forces that weren't Communist for example.