Republic of Venice crushes the Anti Venito allaince in the league of Cambrai war

In 1508 to curb growing Venetian power in Northern Italy pope Julius II created an anti Venitian allaince with Louis XII of France, Louis Ferdinand of Spain, and HRE Maximillian I In this TL Venice manages to emerge victorious, the Venetians were master seafarers and at this time had a huge fleet in the med, Venice was extremly wealthy and due to it's strategic position on The lagoon it was a natural fortress. Yhe Venitians also had the a powerful if not terrifying Military as shown during the wars against Milan. So Venice stands a pretty good shot.... Im planning to have Britain side with Venice to take back land from France. With this victory Venice can then force Spain to allow it ships past the straits and with Spains navel force crushed leads to Venitians exploring the new world!!!!!! I hope to make a plausable TL Comments appreciated plz help me out :( Ive been on a string of bad TLs lately.




April 1509,
Louis VII army sets out from Milan, to advance into Venitian territory, Venice hires a condoitierre under Nicolo Pitigilano, his cousin was not present due to the dissagrement beetween the two on how to crush France. Realizing he did not have a large enough force Nicolo also took his cousins troops to face the French. At the village of Agnalado the French had massed troops under the command of Signeur de chaument, Nicolo put his reinforced army on the hiside overlooking the Vineyards. Chaument tried to breach the lines but due to the hill and mud his forces could not breach, to make matters worse his Calvary got stuck in the mud and he was leading the force, capitalizing soon Niccolo ordered his Pikemen to attack the now trapped Calvary, The frontal
assault of the Pilemen directly on the Calvary was devastating and Chaument himself was killed fighting bravely, when the troops of France saw they're General dead, the fled, once again capitalizing Niccolo ordered the Calvary to
run down the infantry nearly all of the French Calvary and over 4000 pikemen and 4000 infantry lay dead. While another 10000 soldiers lay wounded, about 70 guns were captured........ It was said Louis wept after hearing the news, with a complete victory Niccolo marched onto French occupied Italian territory. The Venitian doge was a very happy man that day.......





In OTL due to the dissagreemt with the two cousins at this battle no reinforcements were sent by his cousin who ordered them to hold ground leading to a devastating defeat due to the two cousins arguments over how to defeat France, in This TL only one is present and he also has the reinforcements needed from his cousins army.





So what do you all think....:):)
 
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The battle of Agnadello is an obvious POD. Now Venice has won the first encounter, but she's to manage the follow up. The HRE will take time before coming into play, so in this moment the main opposition are just the French and the papal troops. Clearly Venice cannot win a stand-up fight against the French, the Imperials and the various Italian lords crammed by the pope into the League of Cambrai. OTOH, the league is not tested and all the major players have their own agendas: a smart combination of diplomacy and war can achieve a lot, since Venice is controlling all the internal communications. Plus there is always the gold: Venice is rich, and in this time and age all the kings and emperors need money.
I'm looking with interest to this TL.

The obvious outcome of a victory at Agnadello would be to march on Milan, and try to expel the French. A viable alternative might be to try and make peace with the French: if the French leave the League, I am pretty sure the emperor will never move into Italy
 
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The battle of Agnadello is an obvious POD. Now Venice has won the first encounter, but she's to manage the follow up. The HRE will take time before coming into play, so in this moment the main opposition are just the French and the papal troops. Clearly Venice cannot win a stand-up fight against the French, the Imperials and the various Italian lords crammed by the pope into the Holy Alliance. OTOH, the HA is not tested and all the major players have their own agendas: a smart combination of diplomacy and war can achieve a lot, since Venice is controlling all the internal communications. Plus there is always the gold: Venice is rich, and in this time and age all the kings and emperors need money.
I'm looking with interest to this TL.


Hehe, TY My friend and here's an update.... With the French army in retreat
Niccolo launches a counterattack into Milanese territory, The Dutchy of Tuscany was recently beatean and surrounded by the Papal states as was Ferrara
.... Venice decided to bribe the two Italien city states with a lot of money equivelent to 10000 Ducats to each country, with this money the two countries attacked the papal states, By using the money to buy condotierres of their own, The Venitian strategy was simple due to the hopelessness of their situation they were going to have the papal states be occupied so they can focus on Attacking French holdings in Italy, Meanwhile the Venitians knew of the rivalry beetween England and France. Next they turned to Maximillian. The HRE was suffering finantial diffficulties, so the Venitians promised to pull him out by offering 50000 ducats if he attacked France. He could then keep Paris if he conquered it. A Spanish fleet was enroute to Italy when The Venitian fleet decided to lay a trap, As soon as the Spanish fleet approched Venitian Carracls and all available Venitian warships appoached commanded by the Doge Himself, now Ironically The King of Spain wanting to lead the conquest and create glory for himself was aboard a transport. The Venitian plan was simple have a small fleet engage the Spanish warship near the nothrern tip of Corisca while the main fleet sailed around the southern tip
and attacked the Spaniards from behind the order was to sink every transport the Spaniards had, destroy the transports and the invasion is over, the Spanish fleet was huge, Spain had grown very rich from the Americas and now 400 transports totaling 15000 men were surrounded by 100 warships, the Venitians mustered all availaibe warships numbering 200 warships, 60 were sent to engage the Spanish warships while the rest sailed around the tip, the
Spanish captains were shocked at the small Venitian navy approached them soon the Carracks which were big lumbered toward the Light Venitian ships, the Venitians were light, fast and deadly they were perfect ships suited for the medditarian.... The Careacks were not...... soon the Venitian ships lured away the spanish ships leaving the transports defended with little men, the Venitian ships attacked each ship in packs moving swiftly the big ships had more
firepower but the cannons could not shoot the light Venitian ships that bombarded the Spanish Navy. Louis Ferdinand watched with horror from his flagship that was surrounded by four Carracks he had grossly underestimated the Venitians suddenly looking out from the deck he saw a sight that terrified
him, The Venitians main force was behind the transports, soon the Venitian ships opened fire, Louis was too late in ordering a retreat, The Spanish captains were completly shocked not expecting this but

could do little because they were occupied with destroying the pesky Venetian ships, Louis transport tried to escape but a Venitian ship saw the transport
fleeing and opened fire while the bodygaurds( Caracksnwere drawn away by other ships, the Transport was hit and sunk, there were no survivors. Louis carcass lay at the depths of the sea while nearly the whole transport fleet was wiped out and soon the powerful Spanish fleet surrendered........
 
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I'm not sure whether the Venetians would bribe the sultan to attack the HRE and keep all those lands. First, this is before Mohacs, so Hungary is still around. The closest the Ottoman realm comes to the HRE is therefore OTL Jugoslavia - a region of vital interest for Venice itself. They do not want the Ottomans in Slovenia or Carinthia.

If I remember correctly, Maximilian didn't contribute much to the league of Cambrai anyway due to lack of finance. Why not bribe him directly? I could even imagine that Maximilian could be bribed to attacking France. Keeps the Ottomans away and gets the HRE out of the war against Venice?
 
I'm not sure whether the Venetians would bribe the sultan to attack the HRE and keep all those lands. First, this is before Mohacs, so Hungary is still around. The closest the Ottoman realm comes to the HRE is therefore OTL Jugoslavia - a region of vital interest for Venice itself. They do not want the Ottomans in Slovenia or Carinthia.

If I remember correctly, Maximilian didn't contribute much to the league of Cambrai anyway due to lack of finance. Why not bribe him directly? I could even imagine that Maximilian could be bribed to attacking France. Keeps the Ottomans away and gets the HRE out of the war against Venice?


Oh.... Right I forgot Hungarys around whoops. Thanks I'll edit the post.
 
Alright Update.


In Spain the kings death was a severe blow, with much of the Spanish fleet destroyed Spain could do little, The queen regent Joana Realizing Spains position sued for peace, the terms were quiet Leniant.....
Venice would receive The land in what is now near the panama straightand land in a 500 mile radius around both continents and Spanish ships allowed free access to the Atlantic to the Venitian ships and could not interfere with Venitian cargo. Also Spain Promised tobreak it's allaince with France and Invade France in return Venice shall offer them ducats to rebuild they're losses and any land Castille and Aragorn conquered would be theirs to keep.

Meanwhile in Italy terrible news befel the pope, The Papal army faced a crushing defeat at Siena and now Rome was unnoposed but another piece of news shocked him and the pope was said to have fainted, now that the Spanish fleet could not interfere Venitian ships were spotted across the Horizon.... They were transports, Near Marche. Soon the Venitians landed unooposed and the city surrendered. By Febuary 25th 1509 The Venitian army beseiged Rome itself . But the Venitians had another plan in mind now that the Siena and Tuscany Dutchies had little men they order to condotierres armies to invade both countries. The armies of the two were already in Papal territory greatly weakeaned due to the battles, it was a villanous backstabbing. Rome tried desperatly to defend itself but could do little as Venitian cannons tore down the walls of Rome and soon Rome was conquered. The treaty was shocking the two dutchies would be completly annexed although their dukes with relative Autonomy and Rome belonged to Venice however the pope was still the authority, and had all the rights as before..... Meanwhile thanks to Maximillians betrayal of France the French were hard pressed and could offer little support in Italy and they sued for piece on August 15th 1509 in the treaty France gave up all it's Italien posesstiond to Venice. The Doge was immersed in happiness and a new Edict was created, now with control over Northern and Central Italy he issues a verdict that shocked the whole Western world all states and land in control by Venice would be all joined to form the New Confederation of Lombardia headed by Venice.............. However not everyone was pleased, In Naples trouble was brewing one that woould threatean the newly formed confederation. But not since Rome was their a unification of Italy.
 
There is something that does not work in your second post, besides the Ottoman issue.
In particular I fail to imagine where the naval battle between Venice and Spain might happen, since I doubt very much that the Spaniards would blithely enter the Adriatic and on the other hand Venice could not interdict the transport of Spanish troops from Aragona to Naples.

Venice is also more and more worried by the Portuguese penetration in the Indian ocean, and the risk of their traditional traffic with the Levant drying up. The relations with the Ottomans are not good, even if in 1503 a peace treaty had been signed with sultan Bayazid, and the new Venetian strategy had become to befriend the Mameluks in Egypt and use them to contest the Portuguese penetration. The first attempts had been unsuccessful, and a Mameluk fleet was defeated by the Portuguese in 1509: it is quite clear that Venice cannot pursue its Indian strategy at the same time they have to fight for survival in Italy.

The victory of Agnadello (and the likely capture of Louis XII of France who was at the head of the French army at Agnadello) was an obvious godsend. However at this time the Venetians must extricate themselves from the troubles that the Julius II has created for them.
My suggestion would be to use the victory on the French and the capture of Louis to reach an arrangement with emperor Maximilian: Ludovico Sforza again is installed as duke of Milan, as an imperial fief, and Maximilian gets money from Venice for the investiture of Verona and Vicenza. The French are also out of the war at this stage, and Venice can deal with the papal army marching from Umbria to attack the Romagna under Francesco Maria della Rovere, nephew of the pope and newly-minted duke of Urbino, as well as keep a careful eye on the behaviour of the duke of Mantua and the duke of Modena and Reggio. Spain can be bought off with the handing back of the ports in Puglia (which happened IOTL) which are not so vital from Venice point of view.

Depending on the treaty with France, the French may or may not keep Genoa (but their hold on the city is anyway tenuous), but they would be expelled from all the rest of northern Italy. The northern and eastern border would be covered by the agreement with Maximilian and Venice would find its possessions to the historical top: most likely they could manage to annex all of Romagna and Parma. The time is now mature to try to make up a peace with the pope, maybe guaranteeing the duchy of Urbino for his family, paying a tribute for the cities of Romagna and supporting the return of the Medici to Florence.
 
There is something that does not work in your second post, besides the Ottoman issue.
In particular I fail to imagine where the naval battle between Venice and Spain might happen, since I doubt very much that the Spaniards would blithely enter the Adriatic and on the other hand Venice could not interdict the transport of Spanish troops from Aragona to Naples.

Venice is also more and more worried by the Portuguese penetration in the Indian ocean, and the risk of their traditional traffic with the Levant drying up. The relations with the Ottomans are not good, even if in 1503 a peace treaty had been signed with sultan Bayazid, and the new Venetian strategy had become to befriend the Mameluks in Egypt and use them to contest the Portuguese penetration. The first attempts had been unsuccessful, and a Mameluk fleet was defeated by the Portuguese in 1509: it is quite clear that Venice cannot pursue its Indian strategy at the same time they have to fight for survival in Italy.

The victory of Agnadello (and the likely capture of Louis XII of France who was at the head of the French army at Agnadello) was an obvious godsend. However at this time the Venetians must extricate themselves from the troubles that the Julius II has created for them.
My suggestion would be to use the victory on the French and the capture of Louis to reach an arrangement with emperor Maximilian: Ludovico Sforza again is installed as duke of Milan, as an imperial fief, and Maximilian gets money from Venice for the investiture of Verona and Vicenza. The French are also out of the war at this stage, and Venice can deal with the papal army marching from Umbria to attack the Romagna under Francesco Maria della Rovere, nephew of the pope and newly-minted duke of Urbino, as well as keep a careful eye on the behaviour of the duke of Mantua and the duke of Modena and Reggio. Spain can be bought off with the handing back of the ports in Puglia (which happened IOTL) which are not so vital from Venice point of view.

Depending on the treaty with France, the French may or may not keep Genoa (but their hold on the city is anyway tenuous), but they would be expelled from all the rest of northern Italy. The northern and eastern border would be covered by the agreement with Maximilian and Venice would find its possessions to the historical top: most likely they could manage to annex all of Romagna and Parma. The time is now mature to try to make up a peace with the pope, maybe guaranteeing the duchy of Urbino for his family, paying a tribute for the cities of Romagna and supporting the return of the Medici to Florence.

I see, well what happened in this TL is that Venice didn't do much fighting because only a navel battle with Spain was major, well you see at the time sea travel was fastest form of transport so the transports carrying spaniards would be sunk and there king dead, also the Venitians have given very leniant treaties, the reason France surrendered is because it may have a powerful army but when faced with war from the Hre and Spain on two fronts due to Venitian machinations it is screwed. Also yes I know Ottans and Portugese are a threat so I'm planning to have Hungary ally itself with Venice in order to stop Ottoman aggrstion, and when Ottomans declare war they will face a double fronted war, one from the Mamelukes and the other would be Venice and Hungary..... In such a scenario while Portugal, the treaty also inadvertly causes Spain to protect Venitian cargo meaning Portugese would have to shoot Spanish ships to get to transports, what do you think, good enough.
 
I see, well what happened in this TL is that Venice didn't do much fighting because only a navel battle with Spain was major, well you see at the time sea travel was fastest form of transport so the transports carrying spaniards would be sunk and there king dead, also the Venitians have given very leniant treaties, the reason France surrendered is because it may have a powerful army but when faced with war from the Hre and Spain on two fronts due to Venitian machinations it is screwed. Also yes I know Ottans and Portugese are a threat so I'm planning to have Hungary ally itself with Venice in order to stop Ottoman aggrstion, and when Ottomans declare war they will face a double fronted war, one from the Mamelukes and the other would be Venice and Hungary..... In such a scenario while Portugal, the treaty also inadvertly causes Spain to protect Venitian cargo meaning Portugese would have to shoot Spanish ships to get to transports, what do you think, good enough.

Where would the naval battle happen? The Spaniards would not enter the Adriatic, and Venice would not fight in the Thyrrenian.
The alliance with Hungary is pretty difficult, since Hungarians want Istria and Dalmatia, which are Venetian possessions, and Hungary is not in a shape to attack the Ottomans.
I don't understand what you mean by "In such a scenario while Portugal, the treaty also inadvertly causes Spain to protect Venitian cargo meaning Portugese would have to shoot Spanish ships to get to transports". Venice's route to India is through the Red sea, not competing with Portuguese on the circum-African route
 
Where would the naval battle happen? The Spaniards would not enter the Adriatic, and Venice would not fight in the Thyrrenian.
The alliance with Hungary is pretty difficult, since Hungarians want Istria and Dalmatia, which are Venetian possessions, and Hungary is not in a shape to attack the Ottomans.
I don't understand what you mean by "In such a scenario while Portugal, the treaty also inadvertly causes Spain to protect Venitian cargo meaning Portugese would have to shoot Spanish ships to get to transports". Venice's route to India is through the Red sea, not competing with Portuguese on the circum-African route


Oh ok I see, fine then what happens instead the battle happens in the Tyrrhenion sea, also about Portugal I misunderstood what you said, about Ottomans Kay I'm screwed ther.... Do you have any ideas to help Venice against Ottomans.
 
Alright so here's an update, due to Venices new found colonies Venetian sailors sail for the new world. Meanwhile the confederation of Lombardia is an interesting outcome, it was more like the HRE of Italy, each state would have 2 electors and the states were split into Genoa, Pisa, Siema, Mantua, Ferrara, Roma, urbino, Tuscany, Milan and Venice. Each had it's own seperate army but the states pooled all their money into the Veneitian treasury, Each elector was allowed to make decisitions for his country so it was autonomious but , all states swore fealty to the doge never to betray him, and all armies and navies would come to the aid of one another in times of war. The Lombardia trading company was created. Or the LTC in it the head was elected by the elector merchants, the best merchants were admitted to the company and it was they're duty to encourage exploration and colonization. The American colonies were also in the league, due to the huge distance beetween them they sent a fleet of transports with explorers, soldiers, engineers, shipwrights, and colonists about a total of 1000 people, they're mission was simple arrive in south America set up docks create ports, build imfastructure, train the natives to use wepons, due to the huge distance The doge declared all Natives and Africans to be Venitian citizens they would govern as they saw best but, in return they must send in ships daily gold, jewels, precious gems, etc to Venice, must promise to never betray Venice and pay Venitian taxes. The LTC soon turned to India and Asia....... The Venitian doge realized that A straight could be built through the canal, so the settlers also were to bring the message to the people there to build a canal which if Venice controls gives them huge bonuses and lots of money taxing ships to go through......
 
1510: The Ottoman empire eyes at Venitian possetions in Greece and Corfu, as well as Nicosia and cyprus, Realizing the danger Venice decides to act first, calling upon it's allaince with the HRE and Spain it declares
war on the Ottoman empire. The venitian doge bribes the pope to declare a crusade..... Pope Julius agrees after recieving the gold and promise of Rome being independant. The Pope announces a crusade on the Ottoman empire and all christians are required to take up the holy cross once again to free Comstantinople from the Turks. Also as a bonus if the crusade success Rome will gain it's iindependance....
 
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