Remnants of Rome

[Valdemar II]

I like this idea, through there are one element I think are important. The Visigothic state in Italy and etc. are going to be significant different. The primary difference between Visi- and Ostrogoths was lifestyle and warfare. The Ostrogoths had taken up the Scytian way of life, and as such they focused heavily on cavalry, while the Visigoths used traditional Germanic warfare with a stronger focus on the infantry. The difference also do that I think the Visigoths are unlikely to care about Pannovia, which was in OTL had large Ostrogothic settlents. As such they may open it up to refugees from the Huns either like the Alans or Ostrogothic and Heruli splinter groups, whom can serve as Confederalis for the Visigoths.

Beside that, I'm not sure either the Alemannic or Burgudian would expand so much, until the alliance between Aëtius and Huns defeated and deported them to Helvetia, the Burgundians seem to have stayed in the upper Rhine Valley, while the Allemannic seem to have focused more on Slavic-style expansion (taking over the entire country from bottom to top). Of course with the Burgundian control overtheir Northen settlements, they may push into the Alps and the Rhone Valley.

At last the Vandals are going to be interesting without their centre in Cathago, they may have been one of the smallest tribes, but the domain they control are also a lot smaller. They will likely have much greater effect on the following culture of the area than in OTL.

 

[Zuvarq]

Hold on, are the Huns blatantly wrong on the map? How large were the Huns pre-Attila? Euratlas's 400 has them in the area they are in on this map, while the UCS map of 450 has them owning all of Eastern Europe.

What's the area in between the Western Roman Empire and Armorica belong to? Another Hispano or Gallo-Roman state or it's just contested land?

It's contested land. The Roman Empire and Armorica claim it but they have no control over it. The people in Tolosa etc. still consider themselves Romans though.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

I find it unlikely to see the Vandal language lasting too long in the area. It didn't survive at all past the Byzantine reconquest of the Vandal kingdom in the beginning decades of the sixth century. The Vandals are probably more numerous and do have a smaller area in where they are settled around so maybe it can survive though I doubt it would be the dominant language. I can see them eventually switching to Latin or one of the Berber languages within a century or two.

 

[Valdemar II]

I find it unlikely to see the Vandal language lasting too long in the area. It didn't survive at all past the Byzantine reconquest of the Vandal kingdom in the beginning decades of the sixth century. The Vandals are probably more numerous and do have a smaller area in where they are settled around so maybe it can survive though I doubt it would be the dominant language. I can see them eventually switching to Latin or one of the Berber languages within a century or two.

Maybe, but the languaghe aren't the only trace you can leave, the Langobards radical changed the cultural makeup of northen Italy, through they lost their language. Of course the Vandal case are both somewhat different and similar, like in the Langobard case much of the local elite are likely gone, while it in Italy was a result of the Roman-Gothic figthing, here a lot of upper classes has likely fleed for Iberia. Leaving the Vandals in a qite similar position as the Langobards, of course a significant difference are the religeon, the Langobards was or converted fast to Catholism/Orthodoxy, while the Vandals was Arians, which mean they will be somewhat isolated from the Catholic population and that the use Vandal rather than Latin in their churches. This may result in Vandal becoming lingua franca of their domain, at the very least we may see the Vandals keeping it alive for a long time.

 

[Zuvarq]

The language may die out, but I can see the name of the region, and the name of the Latin-derived language spoken in the area, becoming Vandalia and Vanda respectively. Like how northern Italy became Lombardia.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

The language may die out, but I can see the name of the region, and the name of the Latin-derived language spoken in the area, becoming Vandalia and Vanda respectively. Like how northern Italy became Lombardia.

Since it is unlikely that Islam might appear or at least in its current form, I believe Latin if it remains the dominant language of this Vandalia region will have a significant Germanic influence from the Vandals if that is the case. The Vandal language might survive but I can not see it having the prestige of Latin so maybe a few isolated villages might continue to speak Vandalic while everyone else speaks a local Latin-derived language.

 

[Rex Romanum]

A very interesting idea...
I have one question, why Vandals are willing to settle in Mauretania...?
AFAIK in OTL they settled in Africa (modern Tunisia) because it was a relatively rich land...

 

[Zuvarq]

A very interesting idea...
I have one question, why Vandals are willing to settle in Mauretania...?
AFAIK in OTL they settled in Africa (modern Tunisia) because it was a relatively rich land...

Because the powerful Visigoths in rich Africa and Italia and the reconsolidated Roman Empire in Iberia prevent them from going anywhere else. That may soon change however.

 

[MNP]

Since it is unlikely that Islam might appear or at least in its current form, I believe Latin if it remains the dominant language of this Vandalia region will have a significant Germanic influence from the Vandals if that is the case. The Vandal language might survive but I can not see it having the prestige of Latin so maybe a few isolated villages might continue to speak Vandalic while everyone else speaks a local Latin-derived language.

I'm a little more bullish on the Vandals. In OTL the coast and the interior remained very different from each other in Algeria after the coming of Islam (wait until the 900s or even 1000s for more merging from Banu Hilal, Almoravids) and I don't see this changing here. So while Vandal might take root in the coastal areas, it's going to be non-existent in the interior. So I can see their originally language dying out rather fast depending on how things shake out.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

I'm a little more bullish on the Vandals. In OTL the coast and the interior remained very different from each other in Algeria after the coming of Islam (wait until the 900s or even 1000s for more merging from Banu Hilal, Almoravids) and I don't see this changing here. So while Vandal might take root in the coastal areas, it's going to be non-existent in the interior. So I can see their originally language dying out rather fast depending on how things shake out.

So co-existing with whatever Latin-derived language on the coast?

 

[MNP]

So co-existing with whatever Latin-derived language on the coast?

That's how I see it for a while and then whatever African Romance emerges will probably have some unique features of the Vandal language.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Or just have Tengerism [or however it is spelled] become the major rival of Christianity or at least when it comes to the steppes.

 

[Zuvarq]

Which is the best Islam equivalent (as in, a rival to Christianity)
- Some guy preaches a new religion that is derived from Zoroastrianism. When he dies the religion expands greatly.
- Some guy preaches a new religion that is a derived from Christianity. When he dies, people write down his preachings/teachings as a holy book. The the religion expands greatly after his death.
- Tengriism becomes the rival of Christianity
- Fanatical Germanic Paganism

The last one seems implausible though.

 

[Zuvarq]

Rome is for Romans

In 417, Theodosius II declared war on the Visigothic Empire due to religious tensions. Well, and maybe because he wanted to recreate the Roman Empire, rule more land, and have more peasants to tax. Eastern Roman General Anthemius headed into Dalmatia. Eastern Roman General Marcellinus and Aemilius headed into Africa. And Generals Narsus and Julius led Eastern Roman troops in the naval invasion of Sicily and southern Italy. Nine years, more than one-and-a-half-million deaths, and too many solidi later, in 426 the Eastern Roman Empire had conquered Africa, Sardinia, southern Italy, and some of Dalmatia. The Vandals also attacked the Visigoths and conquered the rest of Mauretania, including the city of Constantine.

The war was a victory, but generally a loss to the Eastern Roman Empire. One couldn’t call it a Pyrrhic victory, but it was definitely not an ideal victory, except for the fact that Rome was reconquered. Shortly after the Visigothic War, the Sassanids declared war on the Eastern Roman Empire, taking advantage of weakness and instability caused by the Visigothic War.

The Franks continued to expand. They continued to push the Burgundians south, who in turn pushed the Allemani southwest. In January 418, the Franks invaded Aremorica. Throughout the following year the Franks made devastating advances, and Aremorica soon consisted only of the peninsula Aremorica itself. But a heroic advance led by Nepotianus reconquered much land by 420. However the Franks gained an area around the river Seine when peace was made.

In 419, Flavius Maximus Tiranus invaded the Suevi and led a legion of his own. By November 420, the Suevi had fallen to the Roman Empire... but Maximus died during the siege of Composita Tella (which coincidentally means Burial Ground). He was succeeded by his son, Flavius Maximus Tiranus the Second. Unlike Maximus the First, Maximus the Second was not exactly an exemplary ruler. In 421 the Alemanni, who had conquered most of Southern Gaul, invaded. Maximus the Second was just as bad as a general as he was an administrator. By 422 the Alemanni had almost reached Tarraco. Maximus the Second died in battle and his brother, Flavius Julius Tiranus, became the emperor and a general. Julius and the general Claudius regained most of Septimania only for Priarius III of the Alemanni to reconquer it. In 423 the war ended, the result being that the Romans had secured Hispania but lost much of Septimania.

Meanwhile, Charaton of the Huns expanded their domain. He died in 423, succeeded by Octar. Octar unified the Huns as an actual empire during his reign. His reign was generally peaceful. Octar died in 430. Rugila became the new king and unified all the Huns not only as a empire, but directly under his kingship.

Then Rugila of the Huns looked toward riches in the weakened Visigothic Empire and Eastern Roman Empire. ‘Germanius’ of the Hermunduri had much the same plan.

 

[MNP]

Which is the best Islam equivalent (as in, a rival to Christianity)
- Some guy preaches a new religion that is derived from Zoroastrianism. When he dies the religion expands greatly.
- Some guy preaches a new religion that is a derived from Christianity. When he dies, people write down his preachings/teachings as a holy book. The the religion expands greatly after his death.
- Tengriism becomes the rival of Christianity
- Fanatical Germanic Paganism

The last one seems implausible though.

Tengriism with a mixture of Zoroastrian elements. Perhaps a Turkic Conquest of Persia? Or perhaps a legacy of greater Sassanian influence in the Transoxiana?

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

So how are the remaining proto-Romanian populations living in Hunnic Dacia? I assume that they remain to have a significant presence? What would be their fate?

 

[Zuvarq]

They are allowed to live as they do. They will probably survive until the Avars and Slavs arrive.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

They are allowed to live as they do. They will probably survive until the Avars and Slavs arrive.

Interesting. I do hope that the Huns in some way manage to permanently settle in the area even if the area around it is being flooded by the Slavic tribes and the Avars.

 

[tjvuse]

Great time line
Never would have thought of a western Roman empire in Spain that just blew me away.

Keep up the good work Xwarq and ill try to make some helpful comments in future.https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/member.php?u=11232

 

[Zuvarq]

Interesting. I do hope that the Huns in some way manage to permanently settle in the area even if the area around it is being flooded by the Slavic tribes and the Avars.

The Huns may settle in Yugoslavia. I was thinking that the Slavs should settle Romania, Bulgaria, and northern Greece.