Remember the Texas! The United States in World War II (an alternate history)

So, if the Germans are able to clear Brest before the arrival of the Allied fleet, will the fleet be in position to intercept - or even detect their departure? If the Germans scoot out of range but are detected, then Coastal Command may have a shot at them - provided the weather improves. That's my guess.

Or, if the Germans are detected, would the carriers still be in range to attempt a long-range interception and attack? I think it would be hard for the old Allied battleships to cut the Germans off if they get north of Ushant. Then it would be a tail-chase against ships with a far better turn of speed.

Or, if the Germans aren't aware of the battleship force, the Germans are steaming towards them for the present.
The Home Fleet is on alert as a backup if the Germans shoot through the Channel or make a break for the Atlantic
Coastal Command at least is more alert than during OTL Operation Cerebus
Initially though, both sides are going to see how well their radar works (aboard the CL Dido and aboard the German heavy ships
 
Looks good for the Allies so far. The U-boats missed them coming in, and I don't think the German strike package is gonna be enough, even if it goes in as a concentrated strike.
 
This may be a silly question, but... IOTLthe Wolfpack Raubritter (14 boats) was operating between Terranova and Greenland and by November 15 it should be (most of it) still there, but for U-569, which was docked at St. Nazaire and not departing until early December; the Wolpack Störtebeker (19 boats) was operating in the center area of the Atlantic, with U-96 dangerous close to the southeastern tip of Ireland on the 13 and probably sealing east after that date, and ten other boats going back to their bases and dangerously close to the combat area; and with the eastern part of the Wolfpack Steuben (6 boats) quite close too.

Are those wolfpacks still active in TTL?
 
How far west do the German's need to sail, before they can turn north and later east?

This may be a silly question, but... IOTLthe Wolfpack Raubritter (14 boats) was operating between Terranova and Greenland and by November 15 it should be (most of it) still there, but for U-569, which was docked at St. Nazaire and not departing until early December; the Wolpack Störtebeker (19 boats) was operating in the center area of the Atlantic, with U-96 dangerous close to the southeastern tip of Ireland on the 13 and probably sealing east after that date, and ten other boats going back to their bases and dangerously close to the combat area; and with the eastern part of the Wolfpack Steuben (6 boats) quite close too.

Are those wolfpacks still active in TTL?
The Germans are indeed about to turn north, and to answer your question, my reading of the chart, with swells and waves (and the wind) coming from the southwest, the Germans want about 20 miles or so of distance from the dangerous ground around Ushant

I am assuming Uboat deployments at this point, as Operation Drumbeat started in late July early August in TTL, are more reflective of March 1942 rather than OTL November 1941. In addition, as storm season is getting started in the North Atlantic, with low visibility and much greater difficulties in locating convoys, that the Uboat wolfpacks are operating closer to the US East Coast and Caribbean (more on that soon by the way once Chariot is completed). So the big wolf packs you are listing above are further west. In the OP I mentioned that the majority of the Uboats were kept on their tonnage war mission, with essentially only one big one (organized into 3 smaller groups) kept close in. We are not at a 100 Uboats on patrol yet, so with roughly 50 accounted for here, another dozen or so in the Med or its approaches, a few on very long range missions in the South Atlantic, and another group operating from Norway, that pretty much accounts for most of the immediately available Uboats. The rest are refitting, working up or commissioning.

Big mission the Uboats had, it is easy to understand why Doenitz wanted 300 to keep 100 at sea
 
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It's funny that the first Type XIV Milchkuh are beginning to reach the frontline units of the Uboatwaffe around this time (the first, U-459, being commisioned on November 15, ironically, nd went out on its first patrol in March 1942 after training and trials in the Baltic). With the US in war, the pressure to have the Type XIV joining the Kriegsmarine and supporting Paukenschlag earlier is going to be a tad suffocanting...
 
Operation Chariot (part five)
Contact Night November 12/13 Battle of Ushant
It is 2315 hours when radar operators aboard the HMS Dido detect several unknown ships at a range of 50 miles with the Type 281 radar. The bogies are immediately reclassified as targets as it becomes clear that all of the minesweepers and sloops it is escorting are accounted for and their bearing and range makes it clear they have only recently left the Brittany coast. They cannot be anything else but the German fleet. A flash message is immediately sent to Kimmel and to the Admiralty reporting the German fleet is out. The Germans pick up the sudden signal activity, but their source is still well outside the 10 mile optimal range of their Seetakt radar (and the current actual range of 6 miles because of sea conditions). This alarms Admiral Ciliax who orders the planned turn north to commence immediately. As the small ships of Force M are hurriedly changing course to avoid the nearby German fleet, the Dido moves into position to shadow the enemy as standing orders make the German fleet the mission priority above all others.

Kimmel upon learning that the enemy is out is concerned his powerful but relatively slow battleships will never catch the Germans if they return to port. He is also concerned that the Germans might be breaking for the Atlantic, it never occurring to him that the Germans would steam up the Channel which the Royal Navy has so securely locked down. Force Z thus turns toward the reported position of the enemy, while Admiral Theobold is ordered to accelerate to intercept the enemy and provide assistance to the Dido with his cruiser the Philadelphia, as well as destroyers Farragut and Monaghan. Within 5 minutes of contact, 3 American ships are steaming toward the enemy at 28 knots (best speed for the sea state) while the rest of the American battleship force is following behind at their best speed of 20 knots. The Germans are still at 20 knots but are turning north, which takes them several more miles to the west before their turn is completed.

At this point the bulk of Force M is heading northwest at their best speed to get away from the German fleet, the Dido is maintaining a distance that keeps the enemy in radar range while staying out of German radar range, an American task force is steaming hurriedly toward the Dido, and the American battleships are steaming at their best speed southeast as well. The American battleships will be in detection range before the Germans can get out of the way and the Germans are as yet unaware of the American battleships. Thus, at just after midnight, the American cruiser and its pair of destroyers move in to attack. The American battleships and cruisers have SC surface search radar but none yet have gunnery radar installed but can detect (based on mast height) enemy vessels at 5 and 3 miles respectively due to conditions. The Germans are surprised when the 3 big ships report targets approaching at 30 knots from the southwest at a range of 6 miles. Even more surprising is the sudden barrage of star shells from the Dido as she reaches firing range at about the same time. Ciliax orders his torpedo boats to engage the enemy, while the 3 capital ships and heavier destroyers break north and accelerate at full speed (to around 30 knots due to sea state). The German torpedo boats soon launch torpedoes, forcing the American ships to dodge while the Americans return the favor and neither side gains any torpedo hits. However, the illuminated German torpedo boats are good targets for the American cruiser, which smothers the Mowe under a barrage of 6 inch shells before then shifting and meting out the same punishment to the Grief. Both German ships are set completely ablaze and both sink soon after. The remaining pair of German torpedo boats engage in a close duel with the American destroyers and are outclassed. Both American ships are damaged, but not seriously, while both German torpedo boats are forced to break off as their weapons and upper works are wrecked by a barrage of 5-inch shells from the heavier and more powerful American destroyers.

While all this is going on, Admiral Ciliax sends a contact report to base, and the Uboats 50 miles west of Brest (and near the fight) are vectored toward the enemy to cover his escape further. By chance, the U552 (KaptainLeutenant Erich Topp) manages to spot at a mere 2 miles the approaching American battleships. Moving at their best speed, and having detached the 2 destroyers that were in the lead, the American fleet has its remaining destroyers on the flanks and rear, and while they are struggling to get into position in the lead, they are not yet in that position when he spots the USS Mississippi which is fourth in line and fires off all four torpedoes in his bow tubes before hurriedly sending a contact report. He is barely able to submerge as the American destroyer Dale rushes up on him, firing star shells in his general vicinity. The torpedo attack scores one hit on the American battleship just after of her number 2 turret, ripping a 40-foot gash in her outer torpedo belt but not penetrating the interior torpedo bulkhead. However, the ship is forced to pull out of line and is ordered by Kimmel to head back home, escorted by the destroyer Alywin. Meanwhile the Dale continues to aggressively hunt for the U552 which eventually manages to escape. None of the other Uboats are able to get into attack position before the American fleet finishes racing by.

The obvious presence of enemy Uboats is a concern but Kimmel presses on and thus is able to open fire briefly on the escaping German fleet at nearly 9 miles with a barrage of shells from the West Virginia, Maryland, New Mexico, California and Nevada. American accuracy is poor as night combat training was limited in the peace time US Navy, and without radar guidance the Americans are firing in the general direction of the reports provided by the Dido. The American shooting does manage a near miss from the West Virginia that causes leaks in the Gneisenau while a incredibly lucky hit from the California manages to detonate the magazine of the German destroyer Z28 which disappears in a magnificent (and to everyone watching, terrifying) flash. The Germans flee north and reports from the Dido and American ships report that they are heading for the English Channel. In all nearly 200 rounds of 14 and 16 inch shells were fired in a 15 minute encounter, the first heavy caliber rounds fired by the US Navy in combat since the Spanish American War.

Kimmel orders his task force to follow, with the Dido to retain its shadow of the Germans. However, the Germans are soon well on their way north. Meanwhile the German and British commands are hurriedly reacting to the news that the Operation Cerebus has lost surprise and that the Germans have entered the English Channel at high speed. By 0400 the Germans are well out of reach of Force Z, and Kimmel orders his force to remain in the waters west of Brest to keep them from returning home or breaking out into the Atlantic. Kimmel also orders the two carrier groups to support Force Y which as yet seems undetected and sends Force M (less the Dido which is still shadowing the German fleet) to support the other minesweeping group at St Nazaire.

As news from the Bay of Biscay reaches commanders and is relayed to forces, the Luftwaffe prepares its strike aircraft and fighters attack the American fleet off Brittany and to provide cover to the German Fleet racing north through the English Channel, while the RAF and carrier groups prepare their aircraft to strike the German fleet and continue to support the Allied surface forces. Force W however is ordered to move north and away from the Bay of Biscay so that some of its strike aircraft can stage to English bases and attack the German fleet to provide additional weight to Coastal Command.

As dawn approaches, aircraft engines are starting in France, England and at sea aboard 4 aircraft carriers….
 
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authors notes: It will be rare that you will ever see American Standard class Battleships refered to 'as racing by" (chuckle)

At this point the British have the best radar (including gunnery radar), while the German naval radar is somewhat inferior and the US Navy is about where the Germans are. SG radar in late 1942 is a game changing technology for the US Navy, although it takes them a while to learn the new rules of that game. The Germans are busy trying to get away, thus the sacrifice of the torpedo boats (which are small destroyers).

The Philadelphia is a Brooklyn class and with 15 x 6 inch guns lays down a massive amount of fire power. Assume most of those shells missed but enough of them will smother a destroyer pretty quickly as OTL shows in the Solomons

and now the weather is starting to clear.....

When gaming it out, a UBoat manage to catch the Americans in an attack while they are steaming by, so I figured a Uboat ace is the most likely to get a successful attack off in poor visibility and unpleasant seas.
 
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The Philadelphia is a Cleveland class and with 12 x 6 inch guns lays down a massive amount of fire power. Assume most of those shells missed but enough of them will smother a destroyer pretty quickly as OTL shows in the Solomons

Correction...Philadelphia is a Brooklyn class light, with 15 6 inch guns...so main battery firepower is even heavier in broadside!!!!
 

McPherson

Banned
The opening moves November 12, 1941
The Allied naval forces are all approaching and some are within range of long range Luftwaffe patrol planes as of midday. The Allied surface groups are all steaming at 15 knots and the minesweeping groups are the closest to the French coast. All of the Allied naval task forces have air and surface search radar and patrols consisting of a RAF Coastal Command Hudson and pair of Beaufighters which have the new Mk VII air search radar, while the Hudson’s have Mk II Air to surface vessel radars and several have been issued large numbers of flares at the cost of reduced bomb load to illuminate surfaced Uboats detected at night. The carriers also have much of their bomber force up conducting sweeps looking for surfaced Uboats. Patrolling over Force X and Z, at least until that evening, are standing patrols of RAF Spitfires as the Allied ships have not yet steamed out of fighter cover range as they exist the Irish Sea and begin their approach into the Bay of Biscay. .

First blood is drawn that day as a squadron of Dauntless dive bombers from the Yorktown spot and attack the U-208 which is part of a wolfpack patrolling the approaches of the Irish Sea, while other aircraft force the remaining 4 U-boats of this group to dive and stay below the surface, preventing them from intercepting the Allied ships passing within detection range of them, or surfacing to send a radio message until darkness. Fighters from the Ark Royal shoot down in two different encounters FW200 Condors that were patrolling within radar range of Force Y, but one manages to get a contact report that it is being attacked by carrier aircraft and the Kriegsmarine radios instructions to a second wolf pack to move into that area to look for the enemy. However heavy air patrols keep that group submerged until nightfall soon after they receive their orders.

The Germans do however pick up the increased aerial chatter over the Bay of Biscay and Irish Sea, and while still well out of radar range, this chatter and the loss of at least one patrol aircraft to naval fighters indicates that the Allied operation is in its early stages. Admiral Ciliax at Brest is worried that the Allies are coming earlier than expected, and requests permission to launch Operation Cerebus that night, instead of waiting even if the Luftwaffe is not yet ready. Ciliax makes the point to Admiral Schultze, commander of the Kriegsmarine in France, that better now than to wait in port if the Allies are coming. Schultze, widely respected and although old, a highly decorated war hero (including holding the Pour le Merite) is listened to when he sends a message and then makes a call to Raeder, who after consulting with Hitler, orders the operation to begin as soon as the ships can make steam and leave port. By the time communications times allow reports and orders to be transmitted, the German fleet is making steam and will be ready to leave port at 2003 hours, an hour after nautical twilight and at ebbing high tide.

While the Kriegsmarine is making its preparations the Luftwaffe is ordered to move its aircraft from northern Italy to bases around Lorient by midafternoon, and most take off within an hour of that message, reaching their new forward bases just as the sun is going down in most cases. Mechanical problems reduce the Fliegerkorps X strike group to 45 JU88 dive bombers, 12 Fokker TVIII torpedo bombers (floatplanes) and 15 He111 torpedo bombers as a number of aircraft are forced to abort during their ferry flight or before take off from their bases around Genoa. At the same time, Luftwaffe squadrons in France prepare for a surge the next day and fighters patrol heavily over Brest until nightfall.

Night November 12
The German fleet leaves port escorted by Eboats and covered by 5 Uboats just at the edge of the minefields. The sea state is choppy, with 2 meter wave heights, and there is a 1.5 meter swell so that there are up to 4 meters between crest and trough further offshore. This is rough weather for the Eboats, which are rapidly forced to break off, and the Uboats find that between the sea state and mist from the clouds, as well as 25 knot wind gusts, their visibility is essentially negligible. The Allies also find the weather difficult but the forecast is for it to calm before dawn, with winds dropping to 10 knots and the sea state dropping by roughly half. While not ideal conditions for minesweeping this is adequate enough. Ashore in France, as night falls the weather closes in with rain and low clouds preventing flying before morning while conditions are better in southern England, where it is partly cloudy at present as the weather system in the Bay of Biscay has deflected south by a high pressure area. The Germans are moving at 10 knots initially as they carefully stay in the cleared area off the port of Brest as there are serious concerns that the British have recently mined the area. This uses up almost 3 hours in all, placing the Germans about 10 miles northwest of the island of Quessant at 2300 hours.

The two Allied carrier forces turn west as night falls, moving off at 20 knots to leave the relatively close confines of the Bay of Biscay behind them and plan to return to launch position 150 miles west of the surface groups they are supporting just after dawn. This leaves the two Uboat wolf packs far behind who never sight the two carrier forces in the seas. The Bay of Biscay, well known for some of the heaviest seas in the entire Atlantic basin, is a difficult place to fight in the late Fall through early Spring as in the Atlantic send in large waves and frequent follow right behind. The other Uboat Wolf pack is deployed within 50 miles of Brest and the sea state makes operating on the surface difficult for them as well. The Uboats also lack radar and will not have it until the next year, making their role as picket ships problematic to begin with. The Germans assumed that the Allies would only come in decent weather, and in the near gale conditions present are forced to operate with what is on hand.

The closest forces to the German fleet are Force M, which is at 50 miles and closing, and has shifted track due to drifting off course slightly due to high seas, and Force Z, which is 30 miles behind Force M, and thus 80 miles from the German fleet. If both sides had kept to their planned courses they would have missed each other in the darkness and poor weather. However, the German fleet commander decides to swing a little wider from the dangerous ground near Ushant (Ouessant) and with the weather being poorer than expected, the dangerous ground near the Channel Islands as well. Thus Allied Force M and the German Fleet are on a collision course, with the minesweeping group steaming at 15 knots, and the Germans have now accelerated to 20 knots as they are well clear of coastal minefields and no longer have to worry about the Eboats which were struggling in the heavy seas.

(orange- Uboat wolf packs, Red- German fleet, Blue- minesweeping forces, Green- battleship forces, light green- carrier forces)
Operation-Cerberus-ATL-2.png


Credit @galveston bay for original work. Slight addenda by McPherson.

Question? Why did Kimmel not use geography to his advantage? The Germans have to go through the Cuisinart. Why not use the funnel and KILL them? Chase them out of Brest with the RAF and plonk the SAGs where the Germans will be a shoot-ex / sink-ex?
 
authors notes: It will be rare that you will ever see American Standard class Battleships refered to 'as racing by" (chuckle)

At this point the British have the best radar (including gunnery radar), while the German naval radar is somewhat inferior and the US Navy is about where the Germans are. SG radar in late 1942 is a game changing technology for the US Navy, although it takes them a while to learn the new rules of that game. The Germans are busy trying to get away, thus the sacrifice of the torpedo boats (which are small destroyers).

The Philadelphia is a Cleveland class and with 12 x 6 inch guns lays down a massive amount of fire power. Assume most of those shells missed but enough of them will smother a destroyer pretty quickly as OTL shows in the Solomons

and now the weather is starting to clear.....

When gaming it out, a UBoat manage to catch the Americans in an attack while they are steaming by, so I figured a Uboat ace is the most likely to get a successful attack off in poor visibility and unpleasant seas.
Ah, the Philadelphia CL-41, Is a Brooklyn class Cruiser equipped with,5 x 3 x 6" guns.
 
Of course as I recall the Clevelands could sustain a higher rate of on a per gun basis due to having faster hoists so the firepower difference over say 5 minutes actually isn't all that great about 10% instead of the 25% you'd expect and after said period its basically even in terms of metal downrange at least for the main guns. The secondaries tilt it considerably in favor of the Clevelands since they have literally double that can be brought to bear
 
Operation-Cerberus-ATL-2.png


Credit @galveston bay for original work. Slight addenda by McPherson.

Question? Why did Kimmel not use geography to his advantage? The Germans have to go through the Cuisinart. Why not use the funnel and KILL them? Chase them out of Brest with the RAF and plonk the SAGs where the Germans will be a shoot-ex / sink-ex?
Bottom line, Kimmel was trying to catch the Germans in port and did not plan for them to sortie before he arrived. Note he did steam through the outer Scyllies, which is a bit ballsy. He planned on bottling the Germans up and killing them if they tried to escape.

Neither side is happy at the moment, the Germans were hoping to avoid detection until daylight, while the Americans were hoping to catch the Germans in port. Now both sides are scrambling to react to events.
 
authors note
historical channel dash map... the times are actually reasonably correct for TTL at this point however unlike OTL, the Allies are well aware of the German presence and likely route now



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Operation Chariot (part six)
Locations of various forces Nautical Twilight through Dawn November 13

(sorry if its hard to read but had to shrink the picture down to a size that would fit)
 

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