Remember the Texas! The United States in World War II (an alternate history)
- Thread starter galveston bay
- Start date
marathag
Banned
which was better than the 'Clang' as the new Fish bounced off of enemy hulls in optimum conditions
That still sounds better than the Mk 14, given its tendency to either go bang halfway to the target or go sailing merrily ten feet under everyone's keel. Numbers?
So it's even worse at hitting the target, and it's likely to do jack all if it ever does so. Reinforces marathag's point that at least an S-boat will do more than give the opposition some live-fire ASW practice.
Chapter Two Japan decides and the War against Germany Summer-Fall 1941
Japan and the Allies Summer-Fall 1941
The Japanese had invaded northern French Indochina in 1940 to cut off supplies to China from that source but this had triggered a host of economic sanctions by the US and Britain against Japan. Negotiations to improve relations had gotten nowhere in the last year, and as addition to the seizure of northern Indochina and ongoing war in China, the Japanese had signed a formal alliance with Italy and Germany that same year known as the Tripartite Pact. The German claim that the Americans attacked them first further worsens relations as the Japanese are forced to seriously consider immediate action to honor their alliance. A series of messages using the Purple Code from the Japanese Ambassador in Berlin relaying German requests for the Japanese to honor the pact which are subject to American monitoring due to successful code breaking, further make it clear to the United States that the Japanese almost certainly will act at some point.
The Japanese Army, once it becomes clear becomes clear that the bulk of the United States Navy is leaving the Pacific for Europe, decides to seize the remainder of French Indochina on July 24, 1941. The Army is encouraged by reports of massive German victories in the Soviet Union that continue to pour in. The pro-war elements of the Navy, led by the Naval Minister, firmly believe the Americans and British have the bulk of their navy unavailable for at least a year or more and it will be at least that time before the American Two Ocean Navy Act bears fruit. To the Army and prowar faction in the Navy, there is a narrow window to act to seize the Southern Resource Area and secure the Outer Perimeter against any American counterattack, and if the Germans continue to win, and knock the Soviet Union out, the Anglo-Americans will take years to defeat Germany, and might not even be able to launch that counterattack. Facing a bloody and expensive fight to bash through the proposed outer perimeter of island chains, the Americans will be already war weary when the Navy defeats them in a decisive Tsushima like clash somewhere near the Philippines or Marianas Islands, and thus having lost their fleet, the Americans will make peace.
This of course was magical thinking at the highest level but like so much of the Axis thinking in World War II was the basis for which plans were made and decisions acted on.
Meanwhile in the Washington Conference, in addition to discussing plans against Germany, Roosevelt and Churchill discuss what to do about the Japanese. Roosevelt makes it clear that while the Americans can fight to defend the Philippines and act alongside the British, his Administration cannot be seen as going to war with Japan to defend the British Empire. Thus Churchill will have to find forces to deter Japan that presumably will be available as the US Navy is heading to Britain to defend the British Isles against the Germans. The two men learned about the Japanese move into southern Indochina and have been waiting to discuss the matter jointly. On August 12, 1941, the United States, Britain, and the Free Dutch government announce an embargo on oil and gasoline exports to Japan, and in addition, the government of Britain and the United States freeze Japanese assets. With the press focusing on the War in Europe, this initially gains little notice although within a few days a few opponents in Congress ask questions about the increased sanctions but overall the general opinion in both American political parties is that even the reduced US Navy can handle anything the Japanese will throw at them and the Europeans can easily defend their empires against the second rate Japanese who have not even been able to defeat the Chinese yet. Indeed racist views of alleged Western superiority color Anglo-American thinking at every level and are at root to much of the early problems Allied forces had fighting the Japanese.
By September the Japanese Army is pressing for war and by October Hideki Tojo and Osami Nagano (Army and Navy Minister respectively) have forced the Prime Minister Konoe to resign and Tojo shortly after becomes Prime Minister. Even the faction of the Navy that is against war with the United States has accepted the inevitability and plans are now well advanced toward fighting that war. Although negotiations continue, they are clearly getting nowhere by November and it is clear that war has become inevitable. It is only a matter of time.
That time will end on December 8, 1941 (local time) in the Far East.
The War in the Atlantic and Europe
Meanwhile, the Soviets are suffering one massive disaster after another throughout July-September 1941, and the Western Allies are struggling to find a way to help them. The first convoy to Archanglesk (Operation Dervish) sails from Liverpool on August 21, and is not subject to German attention going or returning. Operations Gauntlet and Strength follow, evacuating Spitzbergen of civilians and carrying an RAF fighter group to help defend Murmansk, again with German interference. Several other convoys follow through the Fall of 1941, none of which receive enemy attention and the first US escorts are involved in November (PQ5). Indeed through the end of the year it looks like this route is surprisingly low risk.
In the Atlantic, the first German U-Boats arrive in July and find that while at war, the American coastal cities are still acting like peacetime. Air cover and convoys are still being organized and the first 21 Uboat patrols in July and August are wildly successful, sinking 45 ships, including 30 tankers in two months, and forcing the Canadians and British to send ships and aircraft to help, while Admiral Nimitz is finally able to get coastal convoys and naval air cover organized. He also presses for Army Air Force help and goes straight to Roosevelt asking for it. The President orders that 35 B17 C/Ds be transferred from the Army to the Navy, and while Hap Arnold grumbles, he does not fight too hard as those aircraft are viewed as stop gaps until the new B17E comes along. Better to lose aircraft to the Navy then squadrons and groups being diverted to a Navy mission. Another 60 B18 Bolo bombers are also transferred to the Navy in exchange for avoiding that mission in the future, and this nearly doubles the size of the Naval air strength available. Nimitz also orders 3 Navy dive bomber squadrons detached from the Fleet Carriers to assist while the Army planes are being transferred (and crews trained), while also some additional Catalina Flying Boats and eventually help from the Civil Air Patrol later in the year as it forms. With these efforts the initial slaughter is ended, and he is able to shift forces to the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico when the Germans shift their efforts south as well. But the first six months after the US entry costs the Allies 2 million tons of shipping and the Germans only lose 22 U-Boats in return. The Uboat arm will call this the “Second Happy Time”.
It is not until late in the Fall that American coastal cities begin full scale black outs, and for a time American civilians are treated to burning ships on the horizon, oil slicks on the beaches and bodies and wreckage floating ashore. For the first time Americans realize that war is upon them in earnest. However there is a bright spot. The first Liberty Ship, the SS Patrick Henry, is launched on September 27 and many more will follow. The Americans also seize the French Liner Normandie, which is soon converted into an American troop ship (by the end of the year) while pressuring the Vichy government in the Caribbean to change sides to Free French, which gives the Americans access to the French carrier Bearn which is rapidly converted into an aircraft ferry.
In the Mediterranean, British warships fight their way to Malta on numerous occasions, reinforcing that beleaguered island, while the British complete their campaigns in East Africa and the Levant, securing their rear in Egypt. The US 24th Pursuit Group arrives in Egypt in October, with 90 P40C fighter aircraft, and is soon followed by 47th Bomb Group (A20) and 22nd Bomb Group (B26) in November. In October General Brereton forms the American Desert Air Force to work alongside the British Desert Air Force and begins flying sorties in November.
The British lose the carrier HMS Eagle in November near Gibraltar and soon after the battleship HMS Barham is also lost from German Uboats, but the demands of operations in the Atlantic prevent a more serious U-Boat deployment into the Mediterranean Sea. However this is offset by the British continuing to hold Tobruk and Malta, and a sharp rebuff to Rommel in the Western Desert, forcing him to retreat to El Agheila.
The biggest Anglo American effort however is Operation Chariot in November 1941.
The Japanese had invaded northern French Indochina in 1940 to cut off supplies to China from that source but this had triggered a host of economic sanctions by the US and Britain against Japan. Negotiations to improve relations had gotten nowhere in the last year, and as addition to the seizure of northern Indochina and ongoing war in China, the Japanese had signed a formal alliance with Italy and Germany that same year known as the Tripartite Pact. The German claim that the Americans attacked them first further worsens relations as the Japanese are forced to seriously consider immediate action to honor their alliance. A series of messages using the Purple Code from the Japanese Ambassador in Berlin relaying German requests for the Japanese to honor the pact which are subject to American monitoring due to successful code breaking, further make it clear to the United States that the Japanese almost certainly will act at some point.
The Japanese Army, once it becomes clear becomes clear that the bulk of the United States Navy is leaving the Pacific for Europe, decides to seize the remainder of French Indochina on July 24, 1941. The Army is encouraged by reports of massive German victories in the Soviet Union that continue to pour in. The pro-war elements of the Navy, led by the Naval Minister, firmly believe the Americans and British have the bulk of their navy unavailable for at least a year or more and it will be at least that time before the American Two Ocean Navy Act bears fruit. To the Army and prowar faction in the Navy, there is a narrow window to act to seize the Southern Resource Area and secure the Outer Perimeter against any American counterattack, and if the Germans continue to win, and knock the Soviet Union out, the Anglo-Americans will take years to defeat Germany, and might not even be able to launch that counterattack. Facing a bloody and expensive fight to bash through the proposed outer perimeter of island chains, the Americans will be already war weary when the Navy defeats them in a decisive Tsushima like clash somewhere near the Philippines or Marianas Islands, and thus having lost their fleet, the Americans will make peace.
This of course was magical thinking at the highest level but like so much of the Axis thinking in World War II was the basis for which plans were made and decisions acted on.
Meanwhile in the Washington Conference, in addition to discussing plans against Germany, Roosevelt and Churchill discuss what to do about the Japanese. Roosevelt makes it clear that while the Americans can fight to defend the Philippines and act alongside the British, his Administration cannot be seen as going to war with Japan to defend the British Empire. Thus Churchill will have to find forces to deter Japan that presumably will be available as the US Navy is heading to Britain to defend the British Isles against the Germans. The two men learned about the Japanese move into southern Indochina and have been waiting to discuss the matter jointly. On August 12, 1941, the United States, Britain, and the Free Dutch government announce an embargo on oil and gasoline exports to Japan, and in addition, the government of Britain and the United States freeze Japanese assets. With the press focusing on the War in Europe, this initially gains little notice although within a few days a few opponents in Congress ask questions about the increased sanctions but overall the general opinion in both American political parties is that even the reduced US Navy can handle anything the Japanese will throw at them and the Europeans can easily defend their empires against the second rate Japanese who have not even been able to defeat the Chinese yet. Indeed racist views of alleged Western superiority color Anglo-American thinking at every level and are at root to much of the early problems Allied forces had fighting the Japanese.
By September the Japanese Army is pressing for war and by October Hideki Tojo and Osami Nagano (Army and Navy Minister respectively) have forced the Prime Minister Konoe to resign and Tojo shortly after becomes Prime Minister. Even the faction of the Navy that is against war with the United States has accepted the inevitability and plans are now well advanced toward fighting that war. Although negotiations continue, they are clearly getting nowhere by November and it is clear that war has become inevitable. It is only a matter of time.
That time will end on December 8, 1941 (local time) in the Far East.
The War in the Atlantic and Europe
Meanwhile, the Soviets are suffering one massive disaster after another throughout July-September 1941, and the Western Allies are struggling to find a way to help them. The first convoy to Archanglesk (Operation Dervish) sails from Liverpool on August 21, and is not subject to German attention going or returning. Operations Gauntlet and Strength follow, evacuating Spitzbergen of civilians and carrying an RAF fighter group to help defend Murmansk, again with German interference. Several other convoys follow through the Fall of 1941, none of which receive enemy attention and the first US escorts are involved in November (PQ5). Indeed through the end of the year it looks like this route is surprisingly low risk.
In the Atlantic, the first German U-Boats arrive in July and find that while at war, the American coastal cities are still acting like peacetime. Air cover and convoys are still being organized and the first 21 Uboat patrols in July and August are wildly successful, sinking 45 ships, including 30 tankers in two months, and forcing the Canadians and British to send ships and aircraft to help, while Admiral Nimitz is finally able to get coastal convoys and naval air cover organized. He also presses for Army Air Force help and goes straight to Roosevelt asking for it. The President orders that 35 B17 C/Ds be transferred from the Army to the Navy, and while Hap Arnold grumbles, he does not fight too hard as those aircraft are viewed as stop gaps until the new B17E comes along. Better to lose aircraft to the Navy then squadrons and groups being diverted to a Navy mission. Another 60 B18 Bolo bombers are also transferred to the Navy in exchange for avoiding that mission in the future, and this nearly doubles the size of the Naval air strength available. Nimitz also orders 3 Navy dive bomber squadrons detached from the Fleet Carriers to assist while the Army planes are being transferred (and crews trained), while also some additional Catalina Flying Boats and eventually help from the Civil Air Patrol later in the year as it forms. With these efforts the initial slaughter is ended, and he is able to shift forces to the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico when the Germans shift their efforts south as well. But the first six months after the US entry costs the Allies 2 million tons of shipping and the Germans only lose 22 U-Boats in return. The Uboat arm will call this the “Second Happy Time”.
It is not until late in the Fall that American coastal cities begin full scale black outs, and for a time American civilians are treated to burning ships on the horizon, oil slicks on the beaches and bodies and wreckage floating ashore. For the first time Americans realize that war is upon them in earnest. However there is a bright spot. The first Liberty Ship, the SS Patrick Henry, is launched on September 27 and many more will follow. The Americans also seize the French Liner Normandie, which is soon converted into an American troop ship (by the end of the year) while pressuring the Vichy government in the Caribbean to change sides to Free French, which gives the Americans access to the French carrier Bearn which is rapidly converted into an aircraft ferry.
In the Mediterranean, British warships fight their way to Malta on numerous occasions, reinforcing that beleaguered island, while the British complete their campaigns in East Africa and the Levant, securing their rear in Egypt. The US 24th Pursuit Group arrives in Egypt in October, with 90 P40C fighter aircraft, and is soon followed by 47th Bomb Group (A20) and 22nd Bomb Group (B26) in November. In October General Brereton forms the American Desert Air Force to work alongside the British Desert Air Force and begins flying sorties in November.
The British lose the carrier HMS Eagle in November near Gibraltar and soon after the battleship HMS Barham is also lost from German Uboats, but the demands of operations in the Atlantic prevent a more serious U-Boat deployment into the Mediterranean Sea. However this is offset by the British continuing to hold Tobruk and Malta, and a sharp rebuff to Rommel in the Western Desert, forcing him to retreat to El Agheila.
The biggest Anglo American effort however is Operation Chariot in November 1941.
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authors note: The Japanese make their decision and it was pretty much inevitable and for the same reasons as historical. Even though the American deterrent (such as it was) has been pulled out of the Pacific, the Allies are trying to avoid defeat in Europe and that must come first, particularly the Atlantic.
The shipping losses above are 1.5 million tons less than historical as Nimitz has only one job, Stark is focused on the Atlantic and so is FDR, and there are more initial resources available and the British and Canadians are quick to ensure they don't lose their oil supplies (which come from Venezuela and the US). Still bad however.
No changes in the War in the East, or in North Africa/Mideast, although there are fewer Uboats so the British don't lose a cruiser they did historically. They also lose the Eagle instead of the Ark Royal as it is headed elsewhere More on that when the War in the Pacific begins.
I saved the Normandie as it gets seized earlier and the butterflies flapped in its favor. The Americans need decks to move aircraft to Africa, so the Bearn is used and the Americans are in no mood for Axis puppet states in the Caribbean.
Operation Chariot will get its own chapter.....
but not today
The shipping losses above are 1.5 million tons less than historical as Nimitz has only one job, Stark is focused on the Atlantic and so is FDR, and there are more initial resources available and the British and Canadians are quick to ensure they don't lose their oil supplies (which come from Venezuela and the US). Still bad however.
No changes in the War in the East, or in North Africa/Mideast, although there are fewer Uboats so the British don't lose a cruiser they did historically. They also lose the Eagle instead of the Ark Royal as it is headed elsewhere More on that when the War in the Pacific begins.
I saved the Normandie as it gets seized earlier and the butterflies flapped in its favor. The Americans need decks to move aircraft to Africa, so the Bearn is used and the Americans are in no mood for Axis puppet states in the Caribbean.
Operation Chariot will get its own chapter.....
but not today
Oh, joy!
U.S. gets sucked into one of Winston's Charlie Foxtrots right off the bat.
Hopefully this doesn't foreshadow sending Pye and the Battle Force into the Med where the RN can fritter them away with the same skills that cost the British the Barnham and led to Nelson, Malaya, Ramillies, and Queen Elizabeth getting significant holes blow in them or U.S. personnel taking part in the FUBAR that was Dieppe.
The naval deployments are interesting, as is the command structure. Putting King as PacFleet is probably wasting him, Kimmel will be okay as Commander European fleet, although he will class readily and often with the RN and possibly Churchill. He is sort of the polar opposite of Stark, who was a pretty good politician and could play the "make nice" game with the entire British establishment.
Is the listing of PacFllet units truncated? Or are there really only 14 destroyers for the entire Pacific Ocean east of the Philippines? I suspect that the West Coast Congressional delegations, especially Senator Johnson and Senate Minority Leader Holman will be having words with FDR, as will several governors. Given the number of major war plants located or under construction on the West Coast (including the Kaiser Yards) and Naval Bases/shipyards (San Diego, Long Beach, San Francisco *2 shipyards*, Portland, Bremerton) leaving, well, nothing to defend the entire Pacific Coast (and the Pacific approaches to the Canal) is bound to raise some eyebrows (and King's blood pressure)
Nimitz is also tragically wasted in what will quickly become a glorified administrative, absolute dead end, position.
Right up until the Japanese decide to send some A6M as escorts (they had moved the 25 Zeros of the Yamada Unit (22nd Air Flotilla) to Son Trang to perform this very task if needed. Things become a good deal less enjoyable for British or Australian pilots at that point.
McPherson
Banned
How many functioned?
Hyperwar.
USS Tinosa.
Mark XIVs were hitting like clockwork. Fail to FUNCTION... Important word that.
DATA.
QED.
McPherson
Banned
Beat me to it. The two biggest allied naval nincompoops of the war, Stark and Pound, get to fubar LANTFLT beyond reason.
Brereton is loose. GRRR,.
The St Nazaire Fiasco is a go.
And I just bet that the Stark corollary to the idiotic Singapore Bastion Defense has LANTFLT covering British home waters and Gibraltar while the reinforced Force H toddles off to Singapore with that "genius" Tom Thumb ready to fight the "Battle of the South China Sea".
This is a Japanese admiral's dream and an USNGS nightmare. Ever hear of bath-tubbing?
Profit In The South China Sea | Seeking Alpha
If the Japanese get ashore on Brunei and Luzon and establish anti-ship strike forces from captured airstrips, they close the compass. and no fleet can avoid the inevitable consequences. This is what Hart told that imbecile, Phillips, 6 December 1941, at their Manila Conference. But I suppose basic airpower and military geography was something Phillips missed at Dartmouth?
If the allies are going to save Force Z, they need to get heavy bombers over the Mekong and points south and west and bomb anything that looks like it can hold a Betty or a Nell.
Then they better be ready for Nagumo.
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If war with Japan seems so obvious, can the allies pull an uno reverse card and get the jump on the Japanese?
Now sinking the IJN in port may be too much to ask, but mailing the Free French Forces to Indochina to "escalate the French Civil War in that region" might just be stupid enough to take some of Japan's ducks out of the row.
Now sinking the IJN in port may be too much to ask, but mailing the Free French Forces to Indochina to "escalate the French Civil War in that region" might just be stupid enough to take some of Japan's ducks out of the row.
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McPherson
Banned
That was Phillips' other stupid idea. Pearl Harbor... er Taranto the Japanese. He nominated PACFLT. Pound chopped off on it and it was proposed at ABC-1.
I actually prefer an expanded "MATADOR". Go after the airfields in the southern French Indochina as well as all of Thailand. In for a strip of bacon, go for the whole hog.
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The US Navy only had 171 destroyers on December 7, and 18 were commissioned second half of 1941 (which were not included as working up and thus not available). The cupboard is pretty bare. Which is in part why the 4 stack DMS got transferred to ASW jobs (which added 8 more hulls for a total of 179 minus 143 accounted for, 18 being worked up, several being converted into APDs (6 of them, not counted) and the remaining 18 being assigned to the Naval Districts (and thus pretty much glorified guard ships).
I will double check the math, but pretty sure I have accounted for them all. ,However as tensions rise with Japan there will be some adjustments as Admiral King screams for reinforcements and political pressure from the West Coast begins to bare. Even more when Japan jumpts in of course.
Stark will eventually be replaced as he is not up to the CNO job, and King will get his spot, with Nimitz then heading to the Pacific. Kimmel may eventually lose his job if he isn't diplomatic enough and replaced by Stark, who is (and did a fine job overseeing the American portion of Operation Overlord and its buildup leading to it). Admiral Hart is the one I always felt sorry for though. Thankless job, and then essentially shelved at the Navy Board the rest of the war.
There are in effect 18 destroyers with the Fleet in the Pacific (including Aleutians patrol) plus several assigned to Naval districts at San Diego, San Francisco, Bremerton and a few deployed in the far South Pacific to remind the South Americans the US Navy is a thing. As for the Canal approaches, the Asiatic Fleet destroyers were sent east for the precise reason of covering the Panama Canal.
As to what Operation Chariot is... that would be telling
the political risks of anything except Operation Matador are way too high and jumping into French Indochina is just not tenable
As to what Force Z looks like and does... that will be part of the story although keep in mind that Churchill wanted a Fleet in Being, not a suicide charge. Although it doesn't really matter what the British send. A big enough force and the Kendo Butai joins in with the Nells and Bettys to take care of the problem right off
McPherson
Banned
Matador alone is a risk. But one could try to infiltrate and special ops the Indo-China problem. But I forgot for a second that the OTC would be Percival and that Brooke Popham is also there along with Thomas. "Saluda a Singapur y pasa a tu destino;. Ve con Dios". Roughly translated: "Singapore, kiss your fundamentals a blessed goodbye."
So the bottom line is that the PacFleet ALWAYS has a carrier at Pearl (or on the West Coast) since part of her escort force has to be used for patrolling of the Hawaiian Defense Zone (at least three ships, maybe four if Lahania Roads is also being patrolled). Any shipping to Australia or even Hawaii is either unprotected or uses up another part of a carrier Task Force escort screen.
Not saying that it can't work that way. Author's fiat 100% get it. and support it Just want to be sure I'm on the same page
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