Religious composition of the Middle East by mid 13th century?

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
Yet, by the Ottoman period, Jews had already become a large percentage in the cities of Tiberius, Jerusalem, etc... Judaiism was by 1526 the largest single group in Jerusalem followed then by Christians and then by Muslim of the Sunni variety. If the Jews already seemingly where the majority of some of the city populations, then it is not inconceivable for them to also be of a high percentage. Especially considering that Palestine has the smallest population of any of these areas, most of which under Arab rule is just Bedouin and walked forts.

For the city of Jerusalem, yes it is plausible that a third were Jewish at some point in the early 13th century. I doubt it though, given the fact the Jewish population was murdered en masse in 1099, and I don't think the KOJ was the friendliest place to Jews. Do you know anything about the Jewish population of Jerusalem at the time it fell to Saladin? I suspect it would require a very quick repopulation to get 33% by the early 13th.

Under Ottoman rule it is of course unsurprising that there were moments where Jews were a plurality though they frequently converted to Islam, there are a lot of Palestinian Arab families of Jewish origin.
 
For the city of Jerusalem, yes it is plausible that a third were Jewish at some point in the early 13th century. I doubt it though, given the fact the Jewish population was murdered en masse in 1099, and I don't think the KOJ was the friendliest place to Jews. Do you know anything about the Jewish population of Jerusalem at the time it fell to Saladin? I suspect it would require a very quick repopulation to get 33% by the early 13th.

Under Ottoman rule it is of course unsurprising that there were moments where Jews were a plurality though they frequently converted to Islam, there are a lot of Palestinian Arab families of Jewish origin.

I am not so sure about the Arab families of Jewish origin. It is true that some Jews did convert, but if it was true, that such a large number of Jews did convert, then we would not see Jewish majorities in cities in both Burji and Ottoman periods of the 1400-1500s. What we do see however, is tribalism present in the Arab societies in Palestine that claims descent from Arabia. Such tribal ties would not exist if all these people were Jews reverted to Islam. To believe this, would mean that the Jews converted then adopted tribal ties and lied about ancestry then kept this form through the Abbasid and Fatimid periods. I do not find this plausible, it is more likely that the Jewish minority was larger and larger the further back we go and the Arab populace represents migrants to the region over the course of Abbasi and Fatimid periods.

You assume the entirety of the Jews or Muslim were murdered. If this was the case, then we would not see crusader kings adopt Arabo-Jewish customs immediately, such as the pattern of seating criss-cross upon the throne. If such a royal custom was adopted, then we can assume other customs were adopted outside of language preference. If everyone left was Christisn or Frankish, then why would they submit to these foreign customs? An example of depopulation is the Zanj capture of Basra, where the city had legitimately not reached a size close to previously by 1254, nearly 400 years after its destruction or the famous Roman destruction of the Israeli countryside.

No, Islamic source further claims the annihilation of the Jewish community, simply that their synagogue was burned with them inside.
 
I think you're both off but kinda right; IIRC there were massacres upon conquest but after a while the area became heavily Muslim and Jewish again. Also, you have to account for later Jewish migration, especially in the Ottoman period.
 
I think you're both off but kinda right; IIRC there were massacres upon conquest but after a while the area became heavily Muslim and Jewish again. Also, you have to account for later Jewish migration, especially in the Ottoman period.

My numbers for the Jewish majority stem from the Ottoman tax collection of 1526, before Jewish migration to the Caliphate. Which did not all settle in Israel but to Turkey, Greece, Egypt, Libya, Syria, etc...
 
Right, but you have to remember that Jewish immigration to the Ottoman empire started in the aftermath of the Alhambra Decree, so somewhat earlier than that. Are there earlier tax registers/other sources on earlier periods?
 
Very interesting!

One more question:

How were perceived the Sunni vs Shi'i in the Christian lands? Were they treated similarly and their population counted as globally Muslims or they were treated separate, having different policies and privileges?

How the two view each others? Were they conflictual or harmonious? And globally, were the Muslims in the Christian lands very rebellious?

Well, there are more than one question...

Thanks
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
I am not so sure about the Arab families of Jewish origin. It is true that some Jews did convert, but if it was true, that such a large number of Jews did convert, then we would not see Jewish majorities in cities in both Burji and Ottoman periods of the 1400-1500s. What we do see however, is tribalism present in the Arab societies in Palestine that claims descent from Arabia. Such tribal ties would not exist if all these people were Jews reverted to Islam. To believe this, would mean that the Jews converted then adopted tribal ties and lied about ancestry then kept this form through the Abbasid and Fatimid periods. I do not find this plausible, it is more likely that the Jewish minority was larger and larger the further back we go and the Arab populace represents migrants to the region over the course of Abbasi and Fatimid periods.

You assume the entirety of the Jews or Muslim were murdered. If this was the case, then we would not see crusader kings adopt Arabo-Jewish customs immediately, such as the pattern of seating criss-cross upon the throne. If such a royal custom was adopted, then we can assume other customs were adopted outside of language preference. If everyone left was Christisn or Frankish, then why would they submit to these foreign customs? An example of depopulation is the Zanj capture of Basra, where the city had legitimately not reached a size close to previously by 1254, nearly 400 years after its destruction or the famous Roman destruction of the Israeli countryside.

No, Islamic source further claims the annihilation of the Jewish community, simply that their synagogue was burned with them inside.

I made no suggestion that the Muslim population was wiped out, it seems pretty clear that the KoJ had a Sunni plurality, I've also looked into things a bit more re. Jewish populations. It seems that the urban populations in Tyre and Acre flourished due to immigration, even though they may have been wiped out at one point. However, neither Jews nor Muslims (nor Copts) were allowed to live in Jerusalem. I haven't seen any source that claims Jews were a major part of the population in KoJ, as there were large numbers of pastoralists and agriculturalists there, enough to support exports of commodities like olive oil, oranges and dates, as well as production of wheat and other staples, it would be an exceptionally unusual if these urban populations outnumbered the rural Muslim and Eastern Christian ones.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...-19-822557-1/55120BA3A1C110DC16D5716F93106A9F

As Roger II said, there was massive immigration to the Ottoman Empire in the 15th and early 16th century, from Iberia and the Italian peninsula, as well as more minor waves from Germany and Poland. Despite the majority you talk about in the city of Jerusalem, it was clear that Jews were a very small minority in Palestine as a whole in 1526. The idea that Jews could have been 33% of KoJ's population as a whole seems very far-fetched if they weren't anywhere near that even after the disaster of Sepharad.

In terms of Palestinian Jews converting, it is clear that this happened, the question is to what degree. Obviously, Arab tribal origin stories are important, however they are not necessarily entirely accurate for every member of the tribe. Conversion and adoption into tribes happened, as did people lying to improve their status. There are also traditions of conversions which are downplayed nowadays, for obvious reasons. There was a big drop in the percentage of Jews in Palestine between 1526 and 1690, which can be explained partially through conversion.
 
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I made no suggestion that the Muslim population was wiped out, it seems pretty clear that the KoJ had a Sunni plurality, I've also looked into things a bit more re. Jewish populations. It seems that the urban populations in Tyre and Acre flourished due to immigration, even though they may have been wiped out at one point. However, neither Jews nor Muslims (nor Copts) were allowed to live in Jerusalem. I haven't seen any source that claims Jews were a major part of the population in KoJ, as there were large numbers of pastoralists and agriculturalists there, enough to support exports of commodities like olive oil, oranges and dates, as well as production of wheat and other staples, it would be an exceptionally unusual if these urban populations outnumbered the rural Muslim and Eastern Christian ones.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...0-19-822557-1/55120BA3A1C110DC16D5716F93106A9

As Roger II said, there was massive immigration to the Ottoman Empire in the 15th and early 16th century, from Iberia and the Italian peninsula, as well as more minor waves from Germany and Poland. Despite the majority you talk about in the city of Jerusalem, it was clear that Jews were a very small minority in Palestine as a whole in 1526. The idea that Jews could have been 33% of KoJ's population as a whole seems very far-fetched if they weren't anywhere near that even after the disaster of Sepharad.

In terms of Palestinian Jews converting, it is clear that this happened, the question is to what degree. Obviously, Arab tribal origin stories are important, however they are not necessarily entirely accurate for every member of the tribe. Conversion and adoption into tribes happened, as did people lying to improve their status. There are also traditions of conversions which are downplayed nowadays, for obvious reasons. There was a big drop in the percentage of Jews in Palestine between 1526 and 1690, which can be explained partially through conversion.

The link you sent did not work oddly for me, it pulled up as an error.

Perhaps my numbers are incorrect for Palestine in terms of Jewish percentage, but again, I find it odd that Jewish populations were obviously strong as evident by Islamic chroniclers in many of the urban areas of Palestine in this period.

Either way, I do not have the will to study this population any further, it is outside of my general interest within Abbasid Iraq.

Also I was of the impression that this was Palestine in 1200, when Jerusalem was not ruled by the Crusaders.

Also notice how small my description of Palestine is; it was an estimate based upon what I had read on in the past. I do not see any competiting numbers or estimates.
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
The link you sent did not work oddly for me, it pulled up as an error.

Perhaps my numbers are incorrect for Palestine in terms of Jewish percentage, but again, I find it odd that Jewish populations were obviously strong as evident by Islamic chroniclers in many of the urban areas of Palestine in this period.

Either way, I do not have the will to study this population any further, it is outside of my general interest within Abbasid Iraq.

Also I was of the impression that this was Palestine in 1200, when Jerusalem was not ruled by the Crusaders.

Also notice how small my description of Palestine is; it was an estimate based upon what I had read on in the past. I do not see any competiting numbers or estimates.

Link fixed now.

The claim we were discussing specifically stated Kingdom of Jerusalem, population 33% Jewish, I wasn't aware you were only discussing Palestine, but the estimated figures for 1533 in Palestine are around 5000. This is about 3% of the population.

Jerusalem was taken by Saladin in 1187, so we can postulate some Jews returned, but 13 years is a very short time, and the Christians got the city back 20 years later, and banned Jews again.

Given this data, unless there was a genocide of Jews or mass conversions, I don't see how the 33% claim can be anywhere near true.
 
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I did not think that Egypt had an outright Muslim majority until the fifteenth century.

I would guess that the Muslim population overtook the Copts by around the mid Fatimid period. This coincides with Alexandria being surpassed by Fustat-Qahirah as the capital of the first Egyptian state and being very heavily Arabic speaking and Muslim as opposed to more cosmopolitan and declining Alexandria. Much of this can be chalked down to the decline of the Mediterranean during the Muslim invasions and the end of Mare Nostrum and the classical Hellenic world, which had defined and created Alexandria.
 
I would guess that the Muslim population overtook the Copts by around the mid Fatimid period. This coincides with Alexandria being surpassed by Fustat-Qahirah as the capital of the first Egyptian state and being very heavily Arabic speaking and Muslim as opposed to more cosmopolitan and declining Alexandria. Much of this can be chalked down to the decline of the Mediterranean during the Muslim invasions and the end of Mare Nostrum and the classical Hellenic world, which had defined and created Alexandria.
So by the time of the 1st Crusade?
 
Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for the feedback. It's very appreciated.

I will re-poet my question, if anyone knew the answer:

How were perceived the Sunni vs Shi'i in the Christian lands? Were they treated similarly and their population counted as globally Muslims or they were treated separate, having different policies and privileges?

Thanks
 
Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for the feedback. It's very appreciated.

I will re-poet my question, if anyone knew the answer:

How were perceived the Sunni vs Shi'i in the Christian lands? Were they treated similarly and their population counted as globally Muslims or they were treated separate, having different policies and privileges?

Thanks
I don't know that European Christendom really appreciated the distinction between Sunni and Shia Islam until the fifteenth century or later.
 
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