Explain? Still how does Christianity fragmented, classical, united or whatever spread into the Iranian plateau and give examples of it happening. Manichaeaism wasn't really able to make significant head way and neither did any religion except different forms of Zoroastrianism and Mazdakism.
Religions in a world where Islam never spreads
- Thread starter starwarsfan
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Explain? Still how does Christianity fragmented, classical, united or whatever spread into the Iranian plateau and give examples of it happening. Manichaeaism wasn't really able to make significant head way and neither did any religion except different forms of Zoroastrianism and Mazdakism.
Zoroastrianism was certainly not dying in 632, before the Rashidun invasion. Even after the conquest, Muslim rulers complained of having to bribe Persians to attend Friday prayers at the mosque, according to the "History of Bukhara" by Narshakhi. Some important Pahlavi texts such as the Denkard, the Bundahishn, and the Zend i Vohuman Yasht come from the Abbasid Caliphate. (Ehsan Yarshater, The Cambridge History of Iran).
That's several centuries of Islamic rule, and the Zoroastrians still managed to hold out for a while. The Sassanid sacred fire Adur Gushnasp still burned well into the 10th century (Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices).
That's several centuries of Islamic rule, and the Zoroastrians still managed to hold out for a while. The Sassanid sacred fire Adur Gushnasp still burned well into the 10th century (Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices).
Persia stays Zoroastrian
North Africa stays Catholic but maybe not Roman
African Horn stays Coptic Orthodox
Afghanistan/Pakistan is probably a mess of Buddhism,Hinduism,Zoroastrianism and folk religion
Central Asia stays Tengriist with Buddhism,Nestorian Christianity and Shamanism competing
Siberia stays Shamanistic with Nestorian Chistianity and Buddhism making inroads.
Indonesia and Malaysia stays Animistic with Hinduism,Buddhism and Nestorian Christianity making inroads.
India still stays Hindu with St Thomas Christian communities
North Africa stays Catholic but maybe not Roman
African Horn stays Coptic Orthodox
Afghanistan/Pakistan is probably a mess of Buddhism,Hinduism,Zoroastrianism and folk religion
Central Asia stays Tengriist with Buddhism,Nestorian Christianity and Shamanism competing
Siberia stays Shamanistic with Nestorian Chistianity and Buddhism making inroads.
Indonesia and Malaysia stays Animistic with Hinduism,Buddhism and Nestorian Christianity making inroads.
India still stays Hindu with St Thomas Christian communities
I probably misspoke, I was more implying the state sanctioned form of Zoroastrianism was having issues and what sects/ heresies could possibly replace it.
Zurvanism wasn't a separate religion from Zoroastrianism but a contrasting view point within it. But yes, it was state sanctioned ideology and religion of the Sassanid court.
Maybe more Zoroastrian heresies, like how French nobles adopted Protestantism partly as an expression of defiance against royal power? Would you consider that more plausible?
Given that at least one Sassanid princess was named Zurvandukht, I can agree with you on that one.
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Judaism would have spread further into Africa out from the Amazigh speaking regions and further into the Sahel. Looking at Bani Israel and the crypto-Jew's of Mali it seems the trade routes would have been the man zones of conversion
Zoroastrian faith would have spread into East Africa via the half Ethiopian half Iranian prince who founded the Swahili city states.
Central and south Africa at most I could see a Kimpa Vita like cultural leaders who fuse Mideastern religions with native faiths to couple with continued unrest from slave trade and trade fueled wars.
Zoroastrian faith would have spread into East Africa via the half Ethiopian half Iranian prince who founded the Swahili city states.
Central and south Africa at most I could see a Kimpa Vita like cultural leaders who fuse Mideastern religions with native faiths to couple with continued unrest from slave trade and trade fueled wars.
Mind elaborating on the Bani Israel (or is this an alternate name for Beta Israel?) and the crypto jews of mali? I never heard of them before, also the east africa iranian guy, any info on him at all sounds fascinating?
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Bani Israel are in Senegal now, they speak a language closer to Songhai who having come from further north and claim descent from Egyptian Jews who fled before converting to Islam. They are a endogamous population who while proclaiming Islam as their faith retain a Judaic memory atleast.
I thought it was some fanciful myth cropped up by some ignorant Eurocentric anthropologists who effected the people (one can see that effect amongst the Tutsi and Hutu) but it turned out after stumbling on some book of Translated Papyri the colony of Elephantine on the border of Sudan some years ago there was a rather stable population of Jewish/Israelite worshippers that eventually been expulsed after their Temple (not merely a synagogue) was destroyed.
This may also be the origin of Beta Israel who are much much closer to Elephantine.
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Timbuktu was a trading center that has a long history of Amazigh traders many of whom were Jew as well as Arab speaking north Africans. There are old records from its heyday of Moroccan Jew's settling and intermarrying, those unwilling to convert were expulsed by a king there but apparently elders know their heritage and keep it hidden.
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Ali ibn al-Hassan Shirazi was a prince of Persia whose mother was an Oromo mistress, he left with followers to Mogadishu and from there founded Kilwa.
The Shirazi are very numerous today still but have completely genetically assimilated into the Bantu population while continuing their Persian identity, they were eventually overtaken by the Omani Arab people but eventually ousted them in the Zanzabari massacres in the 20th century.
I've always felt there was fertile grounds in Scandinavia/Germania for such a thing to occur. I remember reading (although I remember not where) that just like in Ireland with the book of Invasions "Christianising" Irish mythology, that likewise many early Germanic pagan converts were given stories that Ragnarok had already happened and that Baldur, their god of light, was actually the ascendant Christ who was the true godhead of this world.
A Germanic anti-islam (an Abrahamic faith that really loves its polytheism/develops a polytheistic version of events) could develop in Germany hypothetically.
If you happen to recall the source, please share it. I initially suggested the scenario because I was rather amused by the potential irony but now I'm curious as to the possibility of such a thing.
fi11222
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I believe that the interesting question is not so much about Islam as such but rather about what we might call "Militant Messianic Monotheism" (3M), of which Islam is only one possible form.
Let me explain. After starting off as a local form of monolatry, rather than full monotheism, Judaism had split, by the time of 0 AD, into 3 currents :
- The Sadducees, which were the conservative faction and represented the tradition of local Jewish sacrificial Temple-based monolatry.
- The Pharisees, with their emphasis on legalistic rules of purity.
- The Zealots, which were the first example of what I have called 3M above.
The zealots inspired 2 major Jewish revolts in the Ist and IInd centuries (in 66-70 and in 135 respectively). Both were savagely suppressed by the Romans and turned out to be huge disasters for the Jewish people. There were massive casualties and the Jews were almost completely evicted from Palestine. As a result, Judaism was now split in two:
- The Mishnaic Rabbis, heirs of the Pharisees, who adapted Judaism to a life in exile by solidifying its legalistic practices. While Pharisees had had some sympathy for the Zealot movement, the Rabbis now understandably disowned them completely in view of the disaster they had caused and therefore surrounded the idea of a Jewish Messianic savior with so much theological precautions and rules that it would be almost impossible for any claimant to meet them all.
- The early Christians, who had a more radical approach. Indeed, Jesus, according to earlier Jewish criteria, is not a Messiah at all but an anti-Messiah because he is a failed Messiah (in this world). As a result, Chrsitianity is the most anti-messianic movement of the whole history of Monotheism.
Christianity proved to be hugely sucessful, for this reason and for others. When Islam appeared IOTL, it had been the official religion of the Roman Empire for 3 centuries and continued to spread at a rapid rate. The situation at this time is therefore one in which the religious landscape is dominated by a strongly anti-messianic movement.
Now it is crucial to realize that Islam is much less anti-Messianic than Christianity. Jesus is still officially the Messiah but his crucifixion is denied. As a result, he is less of a failure but also much less central. In Christianity, all hopes (temptations) of being the Messiah or of finding a Messiah to follow are sacrificed at the feet of the crucified Jesus. In Islam, such is no longer the case. Furthermore, the character of Muhammad is that of a quasi-Messiah: he is victorious in war and described in all respects as a successful role-model. As a result, it is not surprising that the developping Islamic theology was quick to re-generate a fully Messianic character: the Mahdi. Here we have come full circle as the Mahdi is, like the old Jewish Messiah, a conquering Hero who will subjugate the whole world in the name of Allah.
In view of all this, it is not surprising that Islam has been plagued by a large number of 3M movements, the latest of which is Daesh. Like the Rabbis, the Muslim ulema have tried to mitigate this threat through a multitude of rules and theological restrictions. These measures have been partially sucessful but not completely as we can see in our own day with Daesh.
If we follow this line of reasoning, I believe that the question is not whether or not Islam was inevitable but whether or not the resurgence of some form of 3M-friendly, or at least 3M-permissive, monotheism was inevitable.
My personal opinion is that such a resurgence was highly probable and it is such a scenario, distinct from Islam, that I am exploring in the thread below, on which I am currently working.
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I THINK it was from this book as a contextualisation for the Irish book of Invasions and similar Christian traditions around Europe.
http://www.audible.co.uk/pd/History...f=a_search_c4_1_1_srTtl?qid=1441910671&sr=1-1
But I only have an audiobook copy so finding the quote would be difficult...
If I find another source I will let you know