Religion in "Rome Survives" Scenarios

Wolfpaw

Banned
No love for my Arian Western Empire idea? Rome surviving does not preclude Rome Christianizing.
Not lack of love, just big cultural issues.

Arian Christianity was very popular among the Germanic nobles who later overran the Empire, but that's the issue: it's German, not Roman.

That's a big reason why Arianism didn't stick around; it was popular among the Germanic elites but incredibly foreign to the Roman Christian subjects that they wound up ruling.

An Arian Rome means a Germanic Rome that has switched its focus from the Med to Europe. This happened IOTL, and we all know how that turned out...
 
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Wolfpaw

Banned
Mithras slaying the Moon Cow--in glorious Romacolor!

mithras-farbe3.jpg
 
It makes sense that an Oriental cult would become dominant; the East was the most populous and wealthy part of the Empire.

I could see some sort of Sol-Diana/Isis-Mithras trinity emerge from the Mediterranean cauldron. I mean, look at what they were turning out towards the end:


This completely misses the point that these were accentuated movements within a universally polytheistic culture. There was NO active competition to supplant other godheads.

It also doesn't prove that the general multi-ethnic populace of the Roman Empire were getting bored with their own pantheons, and wanted some juicier sort of eastern cult. Syncretism always happens when two or more religious regional or ethnic-based religious beliefs come into contact. Whole populations of religious believers don't just give up their traditional religious beliefs spontaneously just because a new one appears.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
This completely misses the point that these were accentuated movements within a universally polytheistic culture. There was NO active competition to supplant other godheads.
I was using those stelae to support my trinitarian hypothesis. I don't believe anybody has denied (in fact, pretty much everbody has acknowledged) the polytheistic and syncretic nature of the Roman religious system.
It also doesn't prove that the general multi-ethnic populace of the Roman Empire were getting bored with their own pantheons, and wanted some juicier sort of eastern cult. Whole populations of religious believers don't just give up their traditional religious beliefs spontaneously just because a new one appears.
No one has suggested this either.

Your point, however, seems to ignore that it is States which create Societies, and (as the Romans knew very well) Organized Religion is almost always the handmaiden of the State.

So back to the OP; what if the Christian cult hadn't been chosen as the Imperial handmaiden?
 
I was using those stelae to support my trinitarian hypothesis. I don't believe anybody has denied (in fact, pretty much everbody has acknowledged) the polytheistic and syncretic nature of the Roman religious system.

The comment came after I addressed Dathi about a perceived inevitability that a religion from the east was going to become the state religion of the Roman Empire. Whatever attracts followers in the eastern provinces isn't necessarily going to catch on everywhere else without the state actively endorsing it and forcing the population to accept it along with them.

No one has suggested this either.

I refer you to Dathi THorfinsson's earlier comments.

Your point, however, seems to ignore that it is States which create Societies, and (as the Romans knew very well) Organized Religion is almost always the handmaiden of the State.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. Again, I was arguing that whole civilian populations don't just convert en mass, in short fashion, to any new religion without being compelled by social pressure.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
The comment came after I addressed Dathi about a perceived inevitability that a religion from the east was going to become the state religion of the Roman Empire. Whatever attracts followers in the eastern provinces isn't necessarily going to catch on everywhere else without the state actively endorsing it and forcing the population to accept it along with them.
But the bolded is what we're discussing. Dathi is still correct in pointing out that Oriental cults are the more appealing to the Imperial government due to their influence in the most populous/wealthiest parts of the Empire.

Again, I was arguing that whole civilian populations don't just convert en mass, in short fashion, to any new religion without being compelled by social pressure.
I wouldn't argue with you on that, since you're correct. But State endorsement and Organized Religion on the macro-level is what we're talking here.
 
But the bolded is what we're discussing. Dathi is still correct in pointing out that Oriental cults are the more appealing to the Imperial government due to their influence in the most populous/wealthiest parts of the Empire.

Dathi said "the polytheisms of Greece/Rome/Gaul whatever were simply no longer appealing". "Appealing" to whom? The state, or the general populace? This should be clarified.

Before that he said it was "pretty much guaranteed that a Near Eastern messianic cult becomes the official faith of the Roman Empire".

By the way, cults like that of Mithras had a selective approach to gaining followers (for example, no women).
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Dathi said "the polytheisms of Greece/Rome/Gaul whatever were simply no longer appealing". "Appealing" to whom? The state, or the general populace? This should be clarified.
Fair enough, and I don't agree with Dathi on this one.
Before that he said it was "pretty much guaranteed that a Near Eastern messianic cult becomes the official faith of the Roman Empire".
Well, his wording could be better, but the point remains a pretty solid one; an Oriental cult is most likely, and messianism tends to be popular in times of extreme duress (like the Empire's last centuries).
By the way, cults like that of Mithras had a selective approach to gaining followers (for example, no women).
Indeed. But things like that tend to change when a cult becomes a part of the State Religion.
 
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