Religion before Realpolitik-What if France were pro Habsburg In the 30 years war?

raharris1973

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Replace Richelieu with a figure who values Catholic solidarity over cutting the Habsburg down to size.

What does this do to the war in Germany.

Also, does France have the option of being pro HRe but for a price, like perhaps in return for some concessions in Italy?
 
Replace Richelieu with a figure who values Catholic solidarity over cutting the Habsburg down to size.

What does this do to the war in Germany.

Also, does France have the option of being pro HRe but for a price, like perhaps in return for some concessions in Italy?
30 years war ends up in 4 years and the United provinces are conquered.Maybe Spain and France would set their eyes on England and if the United provinces are conquered I don't think there is much the English could do to stop it
 
Replace Richelieu with a figure who values Catholic solidarity over cutting the Habsburg down to size.

What does this do to the war in Germany.

Also, does France have the option of being pro HRe but for a price, like perhaps in return for some concessions in Italy?
Most likely said figure has a hard time with his boss. Louis XIII loathed the Habsburgs, more than partly due to his adulation of his father who was preparing a war against the Habsburgs at the time of his death.
 
Have the War of the Three Henrys play out differently. The duc de Guise doesn't take the bait of Henry III and thus isn't assassinated at the Chateau de Blois. Instead the king suffers a similar fate once his failed power play is revealed, leading to outright war over the succession with the Huguenots favouring Henri of Navarre and the Catholic League championing the cause of the cardinal Charles de Bourbon. It's a bit of a stretch to assume that the rather extreme League could sway the Politiques to their side, but hey... the last French war of religion was absolute anarchy and perhaps the army of the Duke of Parma decides to intervene more directly on the side of the League. This means you get a die-hard catholic king in the form of Charles X Bourbon instead of the former Huguenot and volatile anti-Spaniard Henri IV.

However, Charles died OTl in 1590 at the age of 67... I guess you could keep him alive for a few years to stabilize things, but as he had no children the matter of the succession would pop up again anyways. Maybe this time the duc de Guise takes the throne for himself? That would make France strongly anti-protestant once the TYW starts to roll.
 
Replace Richelieu with a figure who values Catholic solidarity over cutting the Habsburg down to size.

What does this do to the war in Germany.

Also, does France have the option of being pro HRe but for a price, like perhaps in return for some concessions in Italy?

The issue is that Richelieu is not making exactly brand new policy by invoking "Raison d'état" (not realpolitik although they're close): he's merely refining it and defining it clearly when it had been a long-standing French tradition to oppose the Habsburgs, from the moment they became more than a German power and indeed eclipsed French power. François Ier went into alliance with Suleiman himself, and endured reproof from fellow Catholic monarchs and the Pope, just so that he could escape his perceived encirclement. It is probably possible to have a temporarily favourably-inclined King or Regent of France towards the Habsburgs: Gaston d'Orléans and/or Marie de Médicis come to mind if an accident was to befall Louis XIII but it probably wouldn't last, and certainly not for the whole period of the war. After all, the Hasburgs thoroughly meddled in the Wars of Religion, so the French can claim without feeling too hypocritical that's it's payback, even if they'll have to make people ignore a lot of their own previous behaviour for that to stick.
 
Replace Richelieu with a figure who values Catholic solidarity over cutting the Habsburg down to size.

What does this do to the war in Germany.

Also, does France have the option of being pro HRe but for a price, like perhaps in return for some concessions in Italy?

All the brothers of Anne died unexpectedly without children. Total support from the French in the ongoing war is the price Ferdinand demands for the spanish inheritance.
 
Have the War of the Three Henrys play out differently. The duc de Guise doesn't take the bait of Henry III and thus isn't assassinated at the Chateau de Blois. Instead the king suffers a similar fate once his failed power play is revealed, leading to outright war over the succession with the Huguenots favouring Henri of Navarre and the Catholic League championing the cause of the cardinal Charles de Bourbon. It's a bit of a stretch to assume that the rather extreme League could sway the Politiques to their side, but hey... the last French war of religion was absolute anarchy and perhaps the army of the Duke of Parma decides to intervene more directly on the side of the League. This means you get a die-hard catholic king in the form of Charles X Bourbon instead of the former Huguenot and volatile anti-Spaniard Henri IV.

However, Charles died OTl in 1590 at the age of 67... I guess you could keep him alive for a few years to stabilize things, but as he had no children the matter of the succession would pop up again anyways. Maybe this time the duc de Guise takes the throne for himself? That would make France strongly anti-protestant once the TYW starts to roll.

That doesn't seem too different from OTL. Maybe if you have Henri IV remain a Protestant to the end, so Paris never accepts him and finally another candidate takes over?

Even then, I'm not sure. The Habsburgs are just too much of a threat to France to become allies. More realistically, I can see France perhaps agreeing not to take part in the war, for some kind of price.
 
That doesn't seem too different from OTL. Maybe if you have Henri IV remain a Protestant to the end, so Paris never accepts him and finally another candidate takes over?

Even then, I'm not sure. The Habsburgs are just too much of a threat to France to become allies. More realistically, I can see France perhaps agreeing not to take part in the war, for some kind of price.

The royal succession in France is rigidly settled by the so called Salic law. Only Henri’s uncle Charles dared to against it, but as he is a priest, no solution for dynastic succession. The others princes, Condé and Montpensier were either Protestant or firmly loyal to Henri. The duke of Longueville, from a bastard line, and arguably the next in line, is also pro-Henri. So there is no other candidate to take the throne. You would need the elimination of all the royal house in order to have a king from another dynasty.
 
That doesn't seem too different from OTL. Maybe if you have Henri IV remain a Protestant to the end, so Paris never accepts him and finally another candidate takes over?

Even then, I'm not sure. The Habsburgs are just too much of a threat to France to become allies. More realistically, I can see France perhaps agreeing not to take part in the war, for some kind of price.

It would be a huge difference. There's a marked difference between politique Catholics and League Catholics after all.

I'm not arguing that a France under the Guises or whatever leaugist king they put on the throne would pivot towards a position of subservience within the Habsburg alliance and actively act against the Protestants, Danes and Swedes. The structures and currents are too great to overcome that particular hurdle. What I am saying, is that by having the duc de Guise win the last war of religion you would have a France less likely to intervene directly on the side of the Protestants, which would affect the TYW dramatically.
 
The royal succession in France is rigidly settled by the so called Salic law. Only Henri’s uncle Charles dared to against it, but as he is a priest, no solution for dynastic succession. The others princes, Condé and Montpensier were either Protestant or firmly loyal to Henri. The duke of Longueville, from a bastard line, and arguably the next in line, is also pro-Henri. So there is no other candidate to take the throne. You would need the elimination of all the royal house in order to have a king from another dynasty.
You can override that easily enough, by declaring that Protestants are disqualified. There is even exactly the right court to do this: the Peers of France.
 
You can override that easily enough, by declaring that Protestants are disqualified. There is even exactly the right court to do this: the Peers of France.

The "Court of Peers" is a legal fiction. Only privileges the peers had is to seat in Parliament with the professional judges, never as a separate assembly. Even if the peers could be seated in the same room without killing each others, I am not sure they have a clear anti-Henri IV majority. I am showing a 1588 list.
  1. Princes
    1. Henri Ier de Bourbon-Condé, prince of Condé
    2. cardinal Charles de Bourbon
    3. François de Bourbon-Montpensier, Duke of Montpensier
    4. François de Bourbon-Conti, prince of Conti
    5. cardinal Charles de Bourbon-Condé
    6. Charles de Bourbon-Soissons, Count of Soissons
    7. Henri de Bourbon-Montpensier, Prince-Dauphin
  2. Layty
    1. Henriette of Cleves and Louis of Gonzaga, Dukes of Nevers and Rethel
    2. Charles de Lorraine, Duke of Guise (L)
    3. 3. Charles de Lorraine, Duke of Aumale (L)
    4. 4. Henri, Duke of Montmorency
    5. 5. Marie de Luxembourg and Philippe Emmanuel de Lorraine, Dukes of Penthièvre and Mercoeur (L)
    6. 6. Jacques de Crussol, Duke of Uzès
    7. 7. Charles de Lorraine, Duke of Mayenne (L)
    8. 8. François, duke of Joyeuse (L)
    9. 9. François de Luxembourg, Duke of Piney
    10. 10. Jean-Louis de Nogaret, Duke of Epernon
    11. 11. Charles de Lorraine, Duke of Elbeuf (L)
    12. 12. Albert de Gondi, Duke of Retz
    13. 13. Charles, Duke of Halwin
    14. 14. Louis de Rohan, Duke of Montbazon
  3. Clergymen
    1. cardinal Louis de Lorraine, Archbishop Duke of Reims
    2. Charles de Pérusse d'Escars, Bishop duke of Langres
    3. Valentin Douglas, Bishop Duke of Laon
    4. Nicolas Fumée, Bishop Count of Beauvais
    5. Cosme Clausse de Marchaumont, Bishop count of Chalons
    6. Gabriel de Blaigny, Bishop Count of Noyon
 
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