Relationship between two Jewish States

Relationship between a Orthodox Jewish State and Secular Jewish State?
One possible setting- Let's say Orthodox and religious Jews take up the offer by the British to settle areas in Uganda and maybe some of Kenya too. If I am correct were many orthodox minded Jews against settling in Israel due to some religious reasons? Could religious Jews agree to settle in Africa to escape anti-Semitics and pogroms in Eastern Europe? More flee later on due to the USSR and the Nazis. Would a Jewish homeland in Africa be considered a valid idea and alternative to Israel and Zionist movement for Orthodox Jews? Many secular, reform, and ethnic Jews don't really go to the settlements in Uganda areas with the exception of temporary refugees during ww2 which leads to most Jews escaping Nazi Europe right before the holocaust and mass killings begin. Without getting into details Israel is created around the same time. It is a Yiddish speaking state of secular Jews. Uganda and maybe Kenya becomes a Jewish state somewhat unintentionally due to population becoming the majority in the area due to immigration and high birthrates. The state speaks Hebrew.

How would these states interact? I imagine relationships would be bad to hostile. It probably created a greater divide within Jewish society. Even in our world don't current Israelis not like Orthodox Jews very well at all? I read something about them being most disliked group in Israel among Jews.
 
Fun related fact:

soviet Russia tried to create a Jewish homeland long before Israel was created. The problem was that the new homeland was in the far east near Mongolia and far from anywhere anyone would want to live and that the soviets kept persecuting and repressing Jews.

Still the Jewish Autonomous Oblast keeps existing until this day as a federal subject of Russia.
 
Fun related fact:

soviet Russia tried to create a Jewish homeland long before Israel was created. The problem was that the new homeland was in the far east near Mongolia and far from anywhere anyone would want to live and that the soviets kept persecuting and repressing Jews.

Still the Jewish Autonomous Oblast keeps existing until this day as a federal subject of Russia.
Awkward fact .
At its height in the late 1940s, the Jewish population in the region peaked at around 46,000–50,000, around 25% of the entire population.[14] As of the 2010 Census, JAO's population was 176,558 people,[8] or 0.1% of the total population of Russia. Judaism is practiced by only 0.2% of the population of the JAO.[15] Article 65 of the Constitution of Russia provides that the JAO is Russia's only autonomous oblast. It is one of two official Jewish territories in the world, the other being Israel.

The place never took off because of persecution and the fact that for most Russian Jews it was on the other side of the country, and under Soviet leadership Jews while liked were persecuted. In the onlast jobs were scarce for Jews and most were not even allowed higher education.

It was 96 or 97 and I belive around 900 news left for Israel . Cutting the Jewish population by 20 percent.

It's not that the land sucks . Its fertile.. But to be basically lied to so that they move and grouped together in an area that isn't developed and ultra agrarian under a government that often targets you.. Well.. Eh..
 
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There have been some murmurs among more extreme groups in the Settlement movement that Judea and Samaria should be independent of Israel. Of course, when you talk about Orthodox, there are varying degrees. The Hasidic sects don't have any interest in the settlement movement, outside of perhaps protecting Jewish religious sites in Hebron. The modern religious zionist movement that also identifies as Orthodox, on the other hand, does.

As for your comment on the Orthodox being the most disliked group, again, it depends who you are referring to. UltraOrthodox (the Haredim), yes, as they consume a ton of welfare and refuse to do military service, and this is disliked for obvious reasons. But Orthodox Judaism goes beyond that.

As for the idea of Yiddish, keep in mind it was the secular Jews who largely insisted on Hebrew to be a unifying language for the new nation, and it is largely Orthodox Jews who still have some knowledge of Yiddish.
 
One possible setting- Let's say Orthodox and religious Jews take up the offer by the British to settle areas in Uganda and maybe some of Kenya too. If I am correct were many orthodox minded Jews against settling in Israel due to some religious reasons?

You are not. A small portion of religious Jews oppose Zionism, but most of them do so very strongly, and a big deal is made of it by folks who oppose Zionism. Though Zionism is considered to have been a largely secular undertaking, there was significant participation and contribution from more religious Jews, at all steps of the venture. The majority - probably the vast majority - of Orthodox Jews both in and out of Israel are staunch Zionists.

Furthermore, those anti-Zionist Jews are also less likely to buy into the idea of Jewish state in any place, due to eschewing post-Enlightenment thoughts about nationalism and identity.

Without getting into details Israel is created around the same time. It is a Yiddish speaking state of secular Jews. Uganda and maybe Kenya becomes a Jewish state somewhat unintentionally due to population becoming the majority in the area due to immigration and high birthrates. The state speaks Hebrew.

You have your languages switched around. Of people who speak Yiddish today, most are very religious Jews; they cling to their language as a way to stay separate from society around them; those in Israel additionally eschew Hebrew as too holy to use for daily business.

By contrast, the Zionists (both secular and religious) decried Yiddish as being the language of Diaspora and oppression. The "Old Jew" spoke Yiddish, the "New Jew" spoke Hebrew, representing simultaneously a break with the near past of the shtetl and a reconnection with the old past of a Jewish state and nation.
 
I don't know if there were ever enough religious Zionists to found an exclusively Orthodox Jewish state. There were both religious and secular Zionists, but most ultra-Orthodox Jews were either ambivalent or hostile to the goals of the Zionism.
Haredim and ultra-Orthodox take the position that the Jews' will only be gathered in the holy land according to god's plan, so Zionism is like a heretical way of playing god that takes the momentum out of God's hands and puts it into humanity's. World Agudath Israel was the main Orthodox anti-Zionist political party, founded in Congress Poland in 1912.

It begrudgingly accommodated itself to the existence of Israel in the period after independence, and still runs some Jewish institutions in Israel and America. Without WW2 and the Holocaust, most Hasidim probably would've just stayed in Poland or emigrated to the US.

Almost as early as the movement to revive Hebrew started, the Orthodox establishment considered the everyday use of Hebrew to be sacrilegious. The language of prayers and religious services was filled with worldly loanwords for science and technology, and "vulgarized" with the slang and curse words of any spoken language. It would be like muslims use classical arabic to crack dirty jokes or something blatantly un-religious.

Fun fact, modern Hebrew speakers can understand much of the original Bible without much difficulty. The ancient Hebrew of the old testament was used a source of common vocabulary and grammar, so for a contemporary Hebrew speaker the Book of Genesis is like Shakespeare for English readers. It's much closer to its ancient version than modern Greek is to classical texts.
 
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Awkward fact .
At its height in the late 1940s, the Jewish population in the region peaked at around 46,000–50,000, around 25% of the entire population.[14] As of the 2010 Census, JAO's population was 176,558 people,[8] or 0.1% of the total population of Russia. Judaism is practiced by only 0.2% of the population of the JAO.[15] Article 65 of the Constitution of Russia provides that the JAO is Russia's only autonomous oblast. It is one of two official Jewish territories in the world, the other being Israel.

The place never took off because of persecution and the fact that for most Russian Jews it was on the other side of the country, and under Soviet leadership Jews while liked were persecuted. In the onlast jobs were scarce for Jews and most were not even allowed higher education.

It was 96 or 97 and I belive around 900 news left for Israel . Cutting the Jewish population by 20 percent.

It's not that the land sucks . Its fertile.. But to be basically lied to so that they move and grouped together in an area that isn't developed and ultra agrarian under a government that often targets you.. Well.. Eh..

Another fact: the Soviets considered turning Crimea into a true Jewish SSR and have all Soviet Jews live. Molotov backed the idea, but couldn't push it through after Stalin changed his mind about it. If supposedly somehow someone convinced Stalin that making a "better Israel than the West's capitalist Zionist puppet" then we wind up with two Israels, or even three if the Jewish state in Uganda/Kenya is also still a thing.
 
You have your languages switched around. Of people who speak Yiddish today, most are very religious Jews; they cling to their language as a way to stay separate from society around them; those in Israel additionally eschew Hebrew as too holy to use for daily business.

By contrast, the Zionists (both secular and religious) decried Yiddish as being the language of Diaspora and oppression. The "Old Jew" spoke Yiddish, the "New Jew" spoke Hebrew, representing simultaneously a break with the near past of the shtetl and a reconnection with the old past of a Jewish state and nation.

As a non-religious matter, yes. Yiddish is primarily used by the very very religious today whereas Israel is primarily secular (though that seems to be changing every day...).


However, as far as two Jewish states go, it depends. If the secular state is a Soviet established entity (Birobidzhan, Crimea, East Prussia, whatever) then it'd be the more secular one and the one speaking yiddish.

If the situation is where one is, say, a Jewish polity established in Kenya post-1904 where most of the initial settlers are straight from the shtetl whereas Israel develops as it otherwise did OTL, then Israel would be comparably more secular (and Hebrew) in contrast to the yiddish-speaking Kenya.



I think a neat idea for a Jewish state might be a Fascist France that deports its Jews to Madagascar (likely in conjunction with Poland). Britain and Italy catch on, seize Madagascar and Djibouti, and a Jewish State is established on the Bab el-Mandeb with Britain and Eritrea each ceding a little territory extra (Assab from Italy, Zeila from Britain). This state speaks French, whereas Israel speaks Hebrew.
 
You are not. A small portion of religious Jews oppose Zionism, but most of them do so very strongly, and a big deal is made of it by folks who oppose Zionism. Though Zionism is considered to have been a largely secular undertaking, there was significant participation and contribution from more religious Jews, at all steps of the venture. The majority - probably the vast majority - of Orthodox Jews both in and out of Israel are staunch Zionists.

Furthermore, those anti-Zionist Jews are also less likely to buy into the idea of Jewish state in any place, due to eschewing post-Enlightenment thoughts about nationalism and identity.



You have your languages switched around. Of people who speak Yiddish today, most are very religious Jews; they cling to their language as a way to stay separate from society around them; those in Israel additionally eschew Hebrew as too holy to use for daily business.

By contrast, the Zionists (both secular and religious) decried Yiddish as being the language of Diaspora and oppression. The "Old Jew" spoke Yiddish, the "New Jew" spoke Hebrew, representing simultaneously a break with the near past of the shtetl and a reconnection with the old past of a Jewish state and nation.
I know Orthodox Jews support Zionism and Israel in larger numbers now but before the creation of Israel didn't most not support it at all? Didn't orthodox preachers even tell Jews to stay in Europe during WW2 and the Holoucast and not to go to the holy land? Also without the Holoucast don't more Yiddish speakers survive and have much larger numbers? Aren't most Jews in Germany and Netherlands Yiddish speaking but much more secular? Furthermore isn't Hebrew more known by Orthodox Jews before the creation of Israel while most secular Jews in Europe know Yiddish and not Hebrew?
 
I know Orthodox Jews support Zionism and Israel in larger numbers now but before the creation of Israel didn't most not support it at all? Didn't orthodox preachers even tell Jews to stay in Europe during WW2 and the Holoucast and not to go to the holy land? Also without the Holoucast don't more Yiddish speakers survive and have much larger numbers? Aren't most Jews in Germany and Netherlands Yiddish speaking but much more secular? Furthermore isn't Hebrew more known by Orthodox Jews before the creation of Israel while most secular Jews in Europe know Yiddish and not Hebrew?
There were no western European Jews who spoke Yiddish as a native language, it was largely confined to the Russian Empire and Habsburg Galicia. Napoleon emancipated French Jews in France and the areas of western europe he conquered, and these reforms were kept in place in most of western Europe.

Yiddish (literally German for speaking Jewish) wasn't seen as its own language so much as a pidgin of German, Hebrew, and Slavic languages. Before the 9th century most Ashkenazi Jews lived in what is today Western Germany under the rule of the Charlemagne's Frankish Empire, where they spoke the same language as their neighbors. As a result of frequent expulsions during the Middle Ages and the Crusades, most European Jews ended up in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, where the mix of Rhineland German and Hebrew they spoke gradually borrowed more and more from the Slavic languages of their neighbors.

Eastern European Jews were a much larger proportion of the world's Jewish population and the countries they lived in. Western European Jewish communities were miniscule parts of otherwise monocultural nation states, and they spoke the languages as the rest of their fellow citizens (French, German, Dutch, etc.) . Jews in Western Europe had been integrated into the cultural mainstream of their countries and granted legal equality well before 1914.

The Zionist movement was affected by a cultural gap between educated, assimilated, secular Westjuden and the un-emancipated, religious, and poorer Ostjuden. German Jews looked down upon Eastern European Jews as uncultured, backwards country bumpkin who couldn't speak the language of Goethe and Mozart. There are shocking passages of Hannah Arendts' Eichmann in Jerusalem where she puts down the judge for being a Galician Jew, but consoles herself that at least he's still a European, and she complains about the "Asiatic" and "oriental" character of the Middle Eastern and North African Jews in Israel.

Russian Jews weren't emancipated until the February revolution in 1917, before then they were still subject to legal restrictions on where they could live and what occupations they could hold. In the Pale of Settlement, Jewish communities had to know a basic, conversational level of Polish, Ukrainian, etc. for reasons of economic interdependence, but they spoke a different language from their non-Jewish neighbors at home, and lived in separate cultures.

The closest parallel to this in the modern world is probably German speaking Pennsylvania Dutch Mennonites in the US who do business with the non-Amish, but have a distinct community from the English speakers around them.
 
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There were no western European Jews who spoke Yiddish as a native language, it was largely confined to the Russian Empire and Habsburg Galicia. Napoleon emancipated French Jews in France and the areas of western europe he conquered, and these reforms were kept in place in most of western Europe.

Eastern European Jews were a much larger proportion of the world's Jewish population and the countries they lived in. Western European Jewish communities were miniscule parts of otherwise monocultural nation states, and they spoke the languages as the rest of their fellow citizens (French, German, Dutch, etc.) . Jews in Western Europe had been integrated into the cultural mainstream of their countries and granted legal equality well before 1914.

The Zionist movement was affected by a cultural gap between educated, assimilated, secular Westjuden and the un-emancipated, religious, and poorer Ostjuden. German Jews looked down upon Eastern European Jews as uncultured, backwards country bumpkin who couldn't speak the language of Goethe and Mozart. There are shocking passages of Hannah Arendts' Eichmann in Jerusalem where she puts down the judge for being a Galician Jew, but consoles herself that at least he's still a European, and she complains about the "Asiatic" and "oriental" character of the Middle Eastern and North African Jews in Israel.

Russian Jews weren't emancipated until the February revolution in 1917, before then they were still subject to legal restrictions on where they could live and what occupations they could hold. Yiddish (literally speaking Jewish) wasn't seen as its own language so much as a pidgin of German, Hebrew, and Slavic languages. Eastern European Jewry had to speak a basic, conversational form of Ukrainian, Polish, etc. because of the economic interdependence between Jewish and gentile populations, but they spoke different languages at home and lived in largely distinct communities. The closest parallel to this situation in the modern west is German-speaking Amish/Pennsylvania Dutch and the English speaking non-Amish populations around them.
Sorry, I knew western Jews looked down at their eastern counterparts for those reasons and western Jews were more integrated into Western European society but thought Yiddish was still spoken in Germany by Jews due to the German influence over the language
 
Sorry, I knew western Jews looked down at their eastern counterparts for those reasons and western Jews were more integrated into Western European society but thought Yiddish was still spoken in Germany by Jews due to the German influence over the language
There's no reason to be sorry, that's a reasonable assumption. Yiddish is written in the Hebrew alphabet, but in its spoken former it sounds like bad German, and German sounds like bad Yiddish. Yiddish is probably tied with Dutch as the easiest language for a native German-speaker to learn.
Jews in solidly German speaking areas spoke German, but the cultural boundary between western and eastern Europe is fuzzy. Formerly Polish areas of Prussia like Posen and the corridor may have been Yiddish speaking at some point, but the Jewish populations in the area were heavily Germanized over the course of the 19th century. After 1918 most of these areas ceased to be German territory, and many of the Jews left the region for Germany.
Some Jews might've spoken Yiddish there, but that was because the "German-ness" of the corridor was questionable at best.
 
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