Relations between Minoans and the rest of Greece

What kind of relations existed between Minoan Crete and the rest of the Greek world in the Protopalatial and Neopalatial periods (before the eruption)? The Minotaur myth suggests a sort of clientelary one, with the various Greek coastal cities paying tribute to Minoans, for maritime access. IIRC, no other city-state of the area/period had a large enough navy to even locally contest sealane control.
 
Just like Frank Zappa Said. . .

It was Strictly Commercial. All evidence points to the Minoans as exerting influence through economic means rather then military or cultural ones. From what we've been able to tell, they didn't really even have a strictly military navy, more like armed merchants.
 
Hmm. I find it somewhat hard to believe that the Minoans never had a military navy.

I mean, after the megatsunami, when quality shipbuilding wood was scarce to find (a lot of the smaller islands got swept clean by it, so no trees left there) and they needed to get the most out of every ship they probably stopped keeping a purely military navy, but they must've had military ships prior to that.

And I don't believe a nation could exert purely economic influence before the modern era. That sounds like projecting. After all, what was to stop the Greek coastal city-states from building their own ships and going out? They knew there were other people in and around the Aegean. Unless, of course, the Minoan Navy attacked and captured those ships, meaning they had to pay tribute for sealane access.
 
Hmm. I find it somewhat hard to believe that the Minoans never had a military navy.

I mean, after the megatsunami, when quality shipbuilding wood was scarce to find (a lot of the smaller islands got swept clean by it, so no trees left there) and they needed to get the most out of every ship they probably stopped keeping a purely military navy, but they must've had military ships prior to that.

And I don't believe a nation could exert purely economic influence before the modern era. That sounds like projecting. After all, what was to stop the Greek coastal city-states from building their own ships and going out? They knew there were other people in and around the Aegean. Unless, of course, the Minoan Navy attacked and captured those ships, meaning they had to pay tribute for sealane access.

In the time of the Minoans there was really no such thing as a military navy - specialised military warships didn't really evolve until well into the archaic period of Greek history, 4-500 years after the Minoans.

As for exerting economic influence, the Minoans did exert this but not in modern terms. Essentially they controlled much of the trade routes based on a large fleet and a central geographic position. Once the Myceneans caught up and the volcano had devastated the Minoan fleets their dominant position was challenged.
 

yourworstnightmare

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Minoans was a sea power. There are theories that the Cycladic civilization was deep within the Minoan sphere of interest. Also there was probably rivalry with the Myceneans, both before and after the eruption.
 
As for exerting economic influence, the Minoans did exert this but not in modern terms. Essentially they controlled much of the trade routes based on a large fleet and a central geographic position.
In that case, why did the Greeks pay tribute to the Minoans? In case of economic dominance you don't need to pay tribute, you only need accept disfavourable trade offers.
 

yourworstnightmare

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In that case, why did the Greeks pay tribute to the Minoans? In case of economic dominance you don't need to pay tribute, you only need accept disfavourable trade offers.
These are actually things we don't know much about. We don't know for sure whether the Greeks payed tribute to the Minoans, and if such trubute were payed, when was it payed? Did the Myceneans pay tribute or was it only the pre- Mycenean civilizations that did it? If the Myceneans payed tribute, when did they end paying, did they still pay post- eruption?
 
Hmm. I find it somewhat hard to believe that the Minoans never had a military navy.
Heck, BRITAIN didn't have a military navy, or at least much of one, for a long time. I'm pretty sure they didn't have much of one at the time of Henry V, and Henry VIII massively expanded it to be a real navy. Not sure what happened in between.
 
It was Strictly Commercial. All evidence points to the Minoans as exerting influence through economic means rather then military or cultural ones.

The Mycenaeans were influenced by Minoan culture, but by way of being in the commercial orbit of the Minoans. Palace architectural forms and pottery styles, for example.
 
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The problem with this question is that we don't really know all that much about the Minoan civilization compared to classical civilizations like Athens or Sparta. Minoan records are notoriously hard to decipher and most of our knowledge comes from archeological finds rather than texts. As to the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur, you took the wrong inference from it. What you should have gotten from it was the Minoan practice of bull jumping and it's prevalence in their religion (not the olympions as we know them, more like proto-deities) there are murals at the palace of Knossos that depict the practice and the art form makes it look like the bull and man are fused together. This was the basis for the Minotaur myth, not any supposed tribute from city states that didn't exist yet.
 
The problem with this question is that we don't really know all that much about the Minoan civilization compared to classical civilizations like Athens or Sparta. Minoan records are notoriously hard to decipher and most of our knowledge comes from archeological finds rather than texts. As to the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur, you took the wrong inference from it. What you should have gotten from it was the Minoan practice of bull jumping and it's prevalence in their religion (not the olympions as we know them, more like proto-deities) there are murals at the palace of Knossos that depict the practice and the art form makes it look like the bull and man are fused together. This was the basis for the Minotaur myth, not any supposed tribute from city states that didn't exist yet.


Much as Mary Renault is an interesting read, it is still fiction
 
Much as Mary Renault is an interesting read, it is still fiction

Actually my source for this came from a lecture during an ancient civ class I took at the university of Wisconsin. Although that particular professor was known for being a little eccentric, I hardly think he would have pulled a stunt during a lecture, but what do I know?
 

yourworstnightmare

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The problem with this question is that we don't really know all that much about the Minoan civilization compared to classical civilizations like Athens or Sparta. Minoan records are notoriously hard to decipher and most of our knowledge comes from archeological finds rather than texts. As to the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur, you took the wrong inference from it. What you should have gotten from it was the Minoan practice of bull jumping and it's prevalence in their religion (not the olympions as we know them, more like proto-deities) there are murals at the palace of Knossos that depict the practice and the art form makes it look like the bull and man are fused together. This was the basis for the Minotaur myth, not any supposed tribute from city states that didn't exist yet.
This is a theory that exist, however it's just a theory. We don't know for sure the background to the Minotaur myth, although we know bulls had a important role in the Minoan culture. We don't know if bull jumping actually was a sport or not. All we really know is that the bull was important.
 
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