Reindeer the North American Domesticate

How much of an effect would domestic reindeer have on North America if they were domesticated 4000 years ago?
They're herd animals that can live during mating season comfortably in the thousands, and in winter in herds of hundreds. They provide milk and meat. They can be ridden although they're not much for fighting, more like riding a donkey from what I understand. They can pull sleds so could pull a wagon as well, this also means they could potentially pull a plow.
Also Caribou a close relative live as far south as Yellowstone Park and further south before they were hunted out. So even without breeding a more heat resistant breed, they could cover a huge area.

Most timelines dealing with domestic large animals have horses, bison, dolphins or llama's, I'm curious what people think would occur with reindeer, a good potential domesticate.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I think you don't even need a American domestication of caribou, you can just see a them imported by a late migration of Sibirian reindeer herders while unlikely it's not impossible).

But I don't think it would have any great effect, we will see more mobile nomads earlier in the northen praries, we will maybe see the culture around the great lakes getting a new source of protein and maybe agriculture spread into the Canadian-US border states. But I doubt we will see the Native American in much better position than in OTL, through stronger internal native tribes may result in a few survive to modern day.
 
I think you don't even need a American domestication of caribou, you can just see a them imported by a late migration of Sibirian reindeer herders while unlikely it's not impossible).

Desn't sound too hard, the Inuit had returned to the old world. If you can get them to build a boat that can carry Caribou that might work. Heck, even just them seeing Caribou herders could end up being told to the inland Inuit who basially lived off Caribou. Just takes one adventurous fellow and now you have people domesticating Caribou in the new world.
 
Essentially it all starts with someone then spreads like crazy to everyone else. Someone probably once tried to ride a buffalo but got trampled so people don't ride them. It would be interesting, Canadian and American settlers chasing aftera North American Sami
 
The big question is how large a range North American reindeer would have: what climates can they live in and how quickly they would spread (I think they could spread a lot faster than planet crops). Like llamas, they can be used to carry stuff but are too small to ride. It would be interesting if somebody invented the sledge, making winter travel easier (no wheels though:().
 
Caribou and reindeer are the same species. Eurasian and American caribou were cut off by rising sea levels, same as wolves and humans, and at the same time. We don't consider Indians and Europeans two different species, now do we?
 
Caribou and reindeer are the same species. Eurasian and American caribou were cut off by rising sea levels, same as wolves and humans, and at the same time. We don't consider Indians and Europeans two different species, now do we?

I don't think anyone said otherwise:). Reindeer=domesticated caribou.
 
Desn't sound too hard, the Inuit had returned to the old world. If you can get them to build a boat that can carry Caribou that might work. Heck, even just them seeing Caribou herders could end up being told to the inland Inuit who basially lived off Caribou. Just takes one adventurous fellow and now you have people domesticating Caribou in the new world.

My impression of Inuit boats is that building something large and sturdy enough to carry caribou would be extremely unlikely. More likely, it would be cultural transmission by way of the idea spreading from one community to another.

My impression of the inuit, however, is that their cultural lifestyle was incompatible with long term domestication. As I understand it, they were hunter gatherers during the summer who shifted to the coasts for fishing and sealing through the winter.

Caribou were migrators, who passed through the inuit range for only part of the year. Basically, the Caribou were going one way, the inuit the other, when they overlapped fine, but the Inuit lifestyle and survival strategies simply couldn't have caribou or reindeer around all year long.

In contrast, it appears that dogs for sleds and pack, were able to accompany inuit all year round, and were incorporated into inuit society. But this may have come about only as late as the tenth century.

For domesticated caribou, you'd basically have to posit a cultural offshoot of the northern Cree, Dene or Inuit shifting to a lifestyle like the Lapp in Finland.

How far would this go? Not sure. The Caribou are a northern species, but potentially, they'd be viable relatively far south, I could see hybridized or selectively bred versions down as far as the great lakes.

But would the pseudo-Lapp have a great enough cultural advantage to dominate? I'm not so sure. Most of the northern indians, the Cree, the Dene etc. were riverine cultures. The rivers and streams were their highways, as they moved through their territories. That may have given them a technological and subsistence package that would have enabled them to resist invading caribou riders.

The Reindeer/Caribou have potential as beasts of burden, but was this a significant advantage compared to boats and canoes? They might have been of advantage in hunting animals such as bison, but I'm not so sure about that. And they might have pulled a plow, but then you'd need to get them as far south as the agricultural populations, and had a very big leap take place.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
The fun thing with the inuit is that the enormous amount of founder effect (the lapps still use them so I suspect they still have some worth) their many migrations had can lead to similarly enormous butterflies: when they landed in the Americas, they knew metallurgy, they knew how to make compound bows and they likely had reindeers domesticated, but since it was migrations of relatively small tribes, if your specialists die without an apprentice, you're going to be screwed especially if you can't spare some of your subsistance people in the band. There's a phase where what bonework survives even shows signs of struggling, with the really elaborate bonework being either very early or restarting around the Dorset era; it's altogether possible that they were caught completely unprepared by the little ice age leading to stuff like that.

Besides, Inuit reindeer archers has a slight feeling that it could be awesome - but if it had survived I suspect they would have displaced a lot of the people to the south of them, and maybe formed "yet another west coast mini-civilization" - if they hadn't displaced them all further to the south...
 
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we will see more mobile nomads earlier in the northen praries, we will maybe see the culture around the great lakes getting a new source of protein and maybe agriculture spread into the Canadian-US border states.

But I don't think it would have any great effect [...] But I doubt we will see the Native American in much better position than in OTL, through stronger internal native tribes may result in a few survive to modern day.

These sentences show an internal conflict :eek:
 

Valdemar II

Banned
These sentences show an internal conflict :eek:

I don't think a independent Native North Dakotah would really be a big difference, it would be quite minor states which would survivethe European onslaught, the important states in Mesoamerica and Andeans would still collapse, the East Coast and West Coast would still end up European, a few unimportant Native states in the American inland North West would have little effect on history.
 
You're assuming these states would be insignificant or minor. We're discussing the possibility of a native American draft animal, something that didn't exist OTL :eek: And you're saying it 'wouldn't make a big difference' :rolleyes:

IMHO, to prevent the argument from arising, Llamas and Alpacas are not draft animals. They're more akin to sheep than they are to horses, or cattle. You can't use them to pull a plow or to carry a man - but you could do both with reindeer.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
You're assuming these states would be insignificant or minor. We're discussing the possibility of a native American draft animal, something that didn't exist OTL :eek: And you're saying it 'wouldn't make a big difference' :rolleyes:

IMHO, to prevent the argument from arising, Llamas and Alpacas are not draft animals. They're more akin to sheep than they are to horses, or cattle. You can't use them to pull a plow or to carry a man - but you could do both with reindeer.

Reindeer are relative poor food, and both as draft and riding (you can ride reindeer) they're restricted by size and climate. Don't get me wrong this will significant increase the population density of Native American Canada to the levels of Siberia and Lappland. Reindeer seem to have been domesticated quite early, but even with that it didn't really make inroad south, even at times where people farther south lacked access to draft animals.
 
It would effect European colonization of North America. If the Great Lakes, St. Lawrence River region get a denser agriculutral population, perhaps even as far south as New England, early European settlement is going to be very different.

In the west coast the Willamette Valley could host a much larger settled population. Considering this region was untouched for quite awhile, conceivably the local tribes could absorb enough modern technology to build a state of their own, like the Cherokees but no Trail of Tears.
 
Caribou and reindeer are the same species. Eurasian and American caribou were cut off by rising sea levels, same as wolves and humans, and at the same time. We don't consider Indians and Europeans two different species, now do we?

they are, but I remember reading somewhere that caribou and reindeer have very different social patterns, which is why the former were never domesticated. Still, it's not a huge POD to have actual domesticated reindeer brought over to the new world...
 
Caribou and reindeer are the same species. Eurasian and American caribou were cut off by rising sea levels, same as wolves and humans, and at the same time. We don't consider Indians and Europeans two different species, now do we?
You're quite right. But they're different sub-species of reindeer.
Socially the North American Reindeer are less friendly and more migratory then European ones. And European reindeer tend to be stockier and shorter with smaller horns. Its like comparing a North American mountain goat and an Asian Wild Goat, essentially the same physically but the North American mountain goat will kill you.
And I will call wild North American reindeer Caribou to help differentiate domestic reindeer from wild reindeer. Its a bit easier for me, and helps avoid confusion.

The big question is how large a range North American reindeer would have: what climates can they live in and how quickly they would spread (I think they could spread a lot faster than planet crops). Like llamas, they can be used to carry stuff but are too small to ride. It would be interesting if somebody invented the sledge, making winter travel easier (no wheels though:().
Actually reindeer are ridden in Mongolia and throughout Siberia. Not sure how common reindeer riding is in Europe though. And if the Indians have a good reason to invent a wheel I think they would. Having an animal that can pull a reasonably large load across the prairies could be the key.
As for how far they can spread. Since caribou live in Yellowstone park and can be found in some places just south of Lake Superior (northernmost great lake) with human help they could probably live down to about New York with no real physical changes. I'm not sure how easily it would be to breed a more heat resistant reindeer but if North America were to herd reindeer for 3 or 4 thousand years I'm sure at least one breed could become heat resistant. With the tribes and civilizations to the south, there would be a reason to try.

The fun thing with the inuit is that the enormous amount of founder effect (the lapps still use them so I suspect they still have some worth) their many migrations had can lead to similarly enormous butterflies: when they landed in the Americas, they knew metallurgy, they knew how to make compound bows and they likely had reindeers domesticated, but since it was migrations of relatively small tribes, if your specialists die without an apprentice, you're going to be screwed especially if you can't spare some of your subsistance people in the band. There's a phase where what bonework survives even shows signs of struggling, with the really elaborate bonework being either very early or restarting around the Dorset era; it's altogether possible that they were caught completely unprepared by the little ice age leading to stuff like that.

Besides, Inuit reindeer archers has a slight feeling that it could be awesome - but if it had survived I suspect they would have displaced a lot of the people to the south of them, and maybe formed "yet another west coast mini-civilization" - if they hadn't displaced them all further to the south...
I didn't know that the bone carving had declined at one point, I'd always assumed it had continually improved. Cool.
I don't think they'd be a west coast civilization. Too little land and too easy to fish there. Having a reindeer civilization along the edge of the Rockies and following the rivers in the prairies seems like a more plausible idea.
And the Inuit reindeer archers are awesome. Unfortunately reindeer don't seem to be set up for mounted combat, so there couldn't be any reindeer knights.

Reindeer are relative poor food, and both as draft and riding (you can ride reindeer) they're restricted by size and climate. Don't get me wrong this will significant increase the population density of Native American Canada to the levels of Siberia and Lappland. Reindeer seem to have been domesticated quite early, but even with that it didn't really make inroad south, even at times where people farther south lacked access to draft animals.

I disagree.
They're not as good as horses or cows, but they would be a vast step up from what the Indians had in OTL. Being able to carry more goods across long distances, having milk and meat without hunting for it, manure for fields, a possibility of plowing even if its in lighter soil than a horse or cow can manage, would be quite useful.
The problem with reindeer in Europe is as you said reindeer are middling animals. Not as good as a horse or cow, only slightly better than a pig (reindeer have more variety, pigs have better and more meat), and goats and sheep offer wool along with everything else. Why would they choose reindeer that are new and not as good as what they had?
Now if the reindeer were a recent domesticate in North America, there wouldn't be enough time to breed a southern variety, and you'd be right. But if the Indians had time to make some different breeds and varieties then the Southern Indians could use them. The Reindeer would probably never cross a desert, but a breed could possibly be made to live in the swamps along the Mississippi.

It would effect European colonization of North America. If the Great Lakes, St. Lawrence River region get a denser agriculutral population, perhaps even as far south as New England, early European settlement is going to be very different.

In the west coast the Willamette Valley could host a much larger settled population. Considering this region was untouched for quite awhile, conceivably the local tribes could absorb enough modern technology to build a state of their own, like the Cherokees but no Trail of Tears.
Thats what I'm thinking. While the Indians wouldn't be technologically equal to Europe, the larger population base and better agriculture would change things, especially in the north.
 
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My impression of Inuit boats is that building something large and sturdy enough to carry caribou would be extremely unlikely. More likely, it would be cultural transmission by way of the idea spreading from one community to another.
Agreed. Any domestication of the caribou would have to be through seeing it done and then doing it in North America, or done independently. Since the reindeer East of the Urals are a different variety from the ones West of the Urals it seems that the reindeer were independently domesticated twice. North America would have to be a third area.

My impression of the inuit, however, is that their cultural lifestyle was incompatible with long term domestication. As I understand it, they were hunter gatherers during the summer who shifted to the coasts for fishing and sealing through the winter.

Caribou were migrators, who passed through the inuit range for only part of the year. Basically, the Caribou were going one way, the inuit the other, when they overlapped fine, but the Inuit lifestyle and survival strategies simply couldn't have caribou or reindeer around all year long.
...Cut...
For domesticated caribou, you'd basically have to posit a cultural offshoot of the northern Cree, Dene or Inuit shifting to a lifestyle like the Lapp in Finland.
This could be the POD, the caribou less migratory or migrate in a way suitable for the Inuit or one of the Northern tribes. Or have the tribes act differently.
Another thing to consider, since caribou live below the Cree and Northern tribes, one of the more sedentary southerly tribes could try to domesticate them.

How far would this go? Not sure. The Caribou are a northern species, but potentially, they'd be viable relatively far south, I could see hybridized or selectively bred versions down as far as the great lakes.
Seeing how much horses, sheep, cows and goats have been changed I think with enough time reindeer could be made to be more southerly, it really does depend on how much time the Indians have.

But would the pseudo-Lapp have a great enough cultural advantage to dominate? I'm not so sure. Most of the northern indians, the Cree, the Dene etc. were riverine cultures. The rivers and streams were their highways, as they moved through their territories. That may have given them a technological and subsistence package that would have enabled them to resist invading caribou riders.

The Reindeer/Caribou have potential as beasts of burden, but was this a significant advantage compared to boats and canoes? They might have been of advantage in hunting animals such as bison, but I'm not so sure about that. And they might have pulled a plow, but then you'd need to get them as far south as the agricultural populations, and had a very big leap take place.
Again this depends on where and when they're domesticated. If theirs a few thousand years, they'll have a huge affect as breeding makes them more capable of handling the heat. And once they get out of the Canadian taiga the reindeer there is a lot of semi-forested and open land for them to expand into.
The first domestication would probably happen near the edge of the Cree territory as thats closest to the prairie and relies the least on water. It is also close to caribou territory allowing the humans and animals to mix together. And if that happens the less water oriented tribes nearby will see an advantage and take it.
Again this would take time but as long as they have the time its possible.
 
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