Reign of the Griffin: An Anglo-Prussian Union

Thande

Donor
Good work Nek - I like the characteristic B Munro-style witty observations :D

What with Walpole losing his influence with the royals (and perhaps a more proactive Prussian monarch soon coming along), I wonder if after he falls from grace/dies there will not be another 'prime minister', with power being divided once more between several ministers. That would have important implications for the proliferation of the British system and how it is viewed elsewhere.

I tend to think all this would spark a war of succession (let's face it, in 18th century Europe the Landgrave of P couldn't cough lightly without sparking a war of succession ;) ) but if you say the War of the Polish Succession has already started...even so, Hanover might turn into another front for it, with the French turning out their pockets to find pliable alternative candidates for the electorate...
 
Always good to see Thread Necromancy. How long can a unification of such disconnected realms as Britain and Prussia last though? It doesn't strike me as something that could last into the 20th Century...
 

Susano

Banned
Yay! It lives! Hooray and Huzzah!

...now let shred it to pieaces :D

as a personal union with Prussia would likely involve getting drawn into Prussian wars.
And what wars would that be at this time? The last war Prussia really fought in was the WotSS, and that was at the urging and more of less at the behalf of Austria and the UK! Okay, it also took part in the end phase of the Great Nordic War, but that was when Sweden really had long been defeated already and just opportunistically grabbing most of West Pommerania. The odd thing about Frederick William, the Soldier King, was after all that he was highly militaristic, and built up Prussia to be the European state with the highest percentage of soldiers - but he loathed to risk all his nice units, men and toys to wars, so he didnt go to wars. And any future King of Prussia would after all most likely sit in London...

So I think you might project modern attitudes about Prussia onto that.

On the death of George II, the throne of Hanover lies empty. Two candidates claim it: Ferdinand Albert II, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg, and Crown Prince Frederick of Prussia, George’s nephew. Both claims have an element of validity, the conflict rising from the interpretation of the Salic law governing Hanover’s succession. Ferdinand’s claim is based on the traditional approach of the crown only passing through men, whereas Frederick’s claim is based on a more complex scenario: if the line is in danger of dying out, the claim may pass through a woman to the most eligible male candidate, this being Frederick.

The situation is smoothed over by the recent marriage of Ferdinand's heir, Charles, to the young Princess Philippine Charlotte, Frederick's younger sister. A compromise between the two sides is reached: Frederick will renounce his claim to the throne of Hanover, on the condition that the Hanoverian offspring take the name "Hohenzollern"
Hrm. IIRC names were a highly regulated matter in Britain, with royal consents needed for name changes etc. But here in Germany it wasnt well regulated at all. You could call a member of the Prussian royal family "of Hohenzollern", "of Brandenburg" or "of Prussia", all with equal validity. Indeed, the names we currently use foir those Houses, Hohenzollern, Habsburg, Wettin and Wittelsbach, say, were even rather uncommon at that time - they were called mostly Brandenburg (or Prussia), Austria (even the Spanish line), Saxony and Bavaria or Palatinate.

I guess it could work nontheless - they could set up a treaty saying the offspring bnelongs to the wifes, not the husbands house, which is not only the name but also which house laws apply. But the question is how sociall acceptable suich an arrangment would be at that time...

Oh and did you forget Ernest again or did he die in the meanwhile?

So okay, maybe that was no shredding. Next time then :D
 
Er, thanks for the PM pointing out this thread has been updated.
It is a good read. Given my lack of knowledge of the period, I can't comment on the plausibility...:eek:
 
Great! Messy 18th century personal unions (or hell, any personal union) are amongst my favorites. :) I'm subscribed.

How are France and Austria viewing these developments? Might spur the two to align even sooner than OTL... France may at least be a little bit less hostile to Spain, at least, considering relations between the two Bourbon monarchies were rather frosty between the 1745 marriage between the Dauphin and his Spanish bride.
 
Yay! It lives! Hooray and Huzzah!

...now let shred it to pieaces :D

>_<

And what wars would that be at this time? The last war Prussia really fought in was the WotSS, and that was at the urging and more of less at the behalf of Austria and the UK! Okay, it also took part in the end phase of the Great Nordic War, but that was when Sweden really had long been defeated already and just opportunistically grabbing most of West Pommerania. The odd thing about Frederick William, the Soldier King, was after all that he was highly militaristic, and built up Prussia to be the European state with the highest percentage of soldiers - but he loathed to risk all his nice units, men and toys to wars, so he didnt go to wars. And any future King of Prussia would after all most likely sit in London...

So I think you might project modern attitudes about Prussia onto that.

Duly noted!


Hrm. IIRC names were a highly regulated matter in Britain, with royal consents needed for name changes etc. But here in Germany it wasnt well regulated at all. You could call a member of the Prussian royal family "of Hohenzollern", "of Brandenburg" or "of Prussia", all with equal validity. Indeed, the names we currently use foir those Houses, Hohenzollern, Habsburg, Wettin and Wittelsbach, say, were even rather uncommon at that time - they were called mostly Brandenburg (or Prussia), Austria (even the Spanish line), Saxony and Bavaria or Palatinate.

I guess it could work nontheless - they could set up a treaty saying the offspring bnelongs to the wifes, not the husbands house, which is not only the name but also which house laws apply. But the question is how sociall acceptable suich an arrangment would be at that time...

I figured it'd be a bit controversial, but that there'd be some manner of legalese you could use to justify it from an old Golden Bull or what have you - you can generally find a legal precedent for both sides of any given dispute when it comes to Germany.

Oh and did you forget Ernest again or did he die in the meanwhile?

He died. This means I don't have to try and track him down again or include him in future updates. Gone, forgotten, zip.

So okay, maybe that was no shredding. Next time then :D

I await it with dread in my heart!
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Er, thanks for the PM pointing out this thread has been updated.
It is a good read. Given my lack of knowledge of the period, I can't comment on the plausibility...:eek:

I'm with Lordinsane on this, of course I'm a little sad that we won't see a Hanover-Prussia union. Beside that with a Frederich in London, the War of Austrian Succesion are going to be quite different, especially because Prussia will not start it, and likely be on the Austrian side, through Frederick (as King of Prussia) will likely press the British government to make a peace treaty which ensure new territories to Prussia.
 

Susano

Banned
I figured it'd be a bit controversial, but that there'd be some manner of legalese you could use to justify it from an old Golden Bull or what have you - you can generally find a legal precedent for both sides of any given dispute when it comes to Germany.
Oh! That reminds me - while such a treaty specifiying which House the offspring will belong to might solve the problems, I think (but am not sure) such treaties fixing successions require the Emperors approval. At least that was so with the Nassovian Succession Association (an association of all nassovian lines saying theyd inherit each other, instead of lands falling away due to a dead lines land being passed away by marriage)... but as said, even I am not sure. :D
 
Continues This very Interesting TL

Well i finish of read the TL and i like a lot, was amazing and very interesting(like you said, having a Britain being linked more to the Contiental European Affairs thanks to personal Union with prussian and lesser degree Hannover), and witht the Cliffhanger of having a more participation of both Prussian/Britain power in the PSW(who prussia have little participation in OTL)

But how will be the long term of this.... maybe now the British with a more profesionalited(with the prussian standarts of training and Conscription) Army and the effect of having of King to Frederick the Great, how will be the Butterflies in the Seven year war(mostly maybe not Treaty of Paris) and most important a possible American Revolutionary war??(that are some interesting butterflies, because the result of the SYW are the butterflies for ARW)

well i expect you retake the TL, that promise a lot,

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Nivek Von Beldo
 
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