Regnum Russiam et Lithuaniae or Vitautas won in the battle of the Vorskla river

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Vladislav, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. Vladislav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ukrainian (South) Slobodia
    Thread on ФАИ

    In late 1380s the relationship between Tokhtamysh, Khan of the Golden Horde, and his former master, Timur, was growing tense. In 1395, after losing the Tokhtamysh–Timur war, Tokhtamysh was dethroned by the party of Khan Temur Qutlugh and Emir Edigu, supported by Timur. Tokhtamysh escaped to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and asked Vytautas for assistance in retaking the Horde in exchange for surrendering his suzerainty over Ruthenian lands. This development was in harmony with Vytautas' ambitions to become ruler of all Ruthenian lands. A surviving iarlyk shows that Tokhtamysh had asked for Polish–Lithuanian assistance previously in 1393.

    Vytautas gathered a large army which included Lithuanians, Ruthenians, Poles, Moldavians, and Wallachians. To enlist support from the Teutonic Knights, Vytautas signed the Treaty of Salynas, surrendering Samogitia to the Knights. Vytautas's son-in-law, Vasily I of Moscow, formally a Tatar vassal, did not join the coalition. The joint forces organized three expeditions into Tatar territories, in 1397, 1398, and 1399. The first expedition reached the Black Sea and Crimea. Vytautas took several thousand captives without much opposition. Half of these captives were settled near Trakai and awarded privileges to practice their faith. Communities of their descendants, Lipka Tatars and Crimean Karaites (Karaims), survive to this day.
    In 1398, the army of Vytautas moved from the Dnieper River and attacked northern Crimea, reaching as far east as the River Don. In order to strengthen his position, Vytautas built a castle at the mouth of Dnieper. Inspired by their successes, Vytautas declared a "Crusade against the Tatars" and in May 1399 received blessing from Pope Boniface IX. The papal blessing for the crusade was an important political achievement for Lithuania, a country converted to Christianity only in 1387 and the subject of a hundred-year crusade. The campaign was organized from Kiev. In 1399, the army of Vytautas once again moved against the Horde along the Dnieper River. On August 5, his army met the Tatars at the Vorskla River just north of Poltava.

    Once the two armies met, Temur Qutlugh proposed a three-day ceasefire to allow both sides to prepare their forces. But Vytautas but knew it was a trick to win time while Edigu's reinforcements arrived. He disagreed to a ceasefire and defeated the Tatars in the two battles. Vytautas ceased to participate in the war thereafter. The frontline between Edigu and Tokhtamysh was on the Don River up to 1405.

    I will post the updated as translation

    PS I ask you to speak grammatical and lexical errors in the text, because I badly know English
     
  2. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Vladko, I think you should have Louis of Hungary to die earlier or die childless preventing the birth of Jadwiga and Mary thus preventing a possible marriage of a daughter of Louis of Hungary and Jogaila making the plans of Wladyslaw II of Opole and Siemowit IV of completely reuniting the Polish lands(Silesia, Mazovia, Kuyavia, Greater Poland and Lesser Poland) materialize.
     
  3. Vladislav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ukrainian (South) Slobodia
    Map on 1399 year (with Russian signs)

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Vladislav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ukrainian (South) Slobodia
    I prefer to use as PoD battle of Vorskla, because it is the latest date for the unification of Russia around Lithuania (and I made timeline on ФАИ up to 1470s) ;)
     
  5. Vladislav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ukrainian (South) Slobodia
    Poland in this timeline will be a lot of suffering but on the Piasts (Mazovian) I have plans
     
  6. Vladislav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ukrainian (South) Slobodia
    Vytautas stepped up its fight against his cousin after the victory of the Vorskla River. Back in the 1390's he was negotiating an alliance with the Order against Poland. Victory at Vorskla allowed him to make his claim to full independence from Krakow. February 19, 1401 the papal legate laid on the head of Vytautas, who was crowned as Alexander I, the crown of the Kingdom of Lithuania and Russia (Latin Regnum Lithuaniae et Russiam). The coronation came many distinguished guests such as the Grand Prince of Moscow Vasily, Grand Master of the Teutonic Order Konrad von Jungingen and Ordensmarschall Werner von Tettingen. Lithuania and the Teutonic Order concluded a military alliance directed against Poland. Moldova (Moldovan voivode Ștefan Mușat wasn’t killed in the Battle of the Vorskla River) and Hungary also joined this coalition.
     
  7. MarshalBraginsky Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2011
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    So is Lithuania Catholic or Orthodox in this case?
     
  8. Vladislav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ukrainian (South) Slobodia
    Lithuania finally become Orthodox in 1470's
     
  9. Coffeelatte Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2010
    Question Why would the Teutonics ally with an Orthodox Lithuania?
     
  10. Vladislav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ukrainian (South) Slobodia
    It's OTL teutonic polotic before Vorskla. For example Vytautas became Grand Duke of Lithuania by the Order, which the Polish-Lithuanian confrontation is profitable
     
  11. RGB Unqueering the Academia

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Location:
    Rainy Corporate Dystopia
    I love the map, by the way. It took me personally about three months to get that level of detail on homemade maps, except this is better.

    Anyway, curious as to how it will turn out. Hopefully sans Republic of Kamchatka as per your Russian thread ;)
     
  12. Tizoc Freelance Debris Architect

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Location:
    Warszawa, Polska
    Since when? Nope, you got it completely wrong.

    Nope again. It wasn't returned because Bohemian kings, who were Silesian overlords, didn't want part with Silesia. Attitudes of silesian Piast didn't matter.
     
  13. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Yeah, I was saying that because I think the Mazovian Piasts kinda used to think that way, that they were the rightful kings of Poland before Siemowit V withdrawn his bid to the Polish throne, the Lower Silesian Piasts till the end still tried to bid to the Polish throne despite always losing.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jogaila

    Wenceslaus IV attempted to return Silesia to Poland in exchange of a pact but the Silesian dukes, the nobles of Silesia and Poland and Jogaila did not agree to that, so the ATL scenario that could return Silesia to Poland is having Siemowit IV or Wladyslaw Opolczyk rule Poland after Casimir III or Louis I of Hungary.

    Habsburgs actually want Silesia, Galicia and Krakow, they want more Polish subjects to Balance their Czech, Magyar and German subjects.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  14. Vladislav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ukrainian (South) Slobodia
    I use I created PDN map

    Republic of Kamchatka is a joke for a colleague ВИП
     
  15. Tizoc Freelance Debris Architect

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Location:
    Warszawa, Polska
    Okay, had to check around, but it seems while basically right you simplified things a bit - Silesia was to be returned on condition of militarily supporting Vaclav against his brother Sigismundus. But it would mean war on two fronts, as there was continuing Teutonian-Lithuanian fighting at the time.
     
  16. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Without the personal union, Silesia would had been returned but that would also mean Poland would be allied with Bohemia, we have three obvious King candidates if we don't want the personal union Wladyslaw Opolczyk, Siemowit IV or Casimir IV of Pomerania, two of those are Piasts and one is from the Gryfita line.

    @Vladislav, you could use Wladyslaw Opolczyk and Siemowit IV in your TL.
     
  17. Vladislav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ukrainian (South) Slobodia
    Vytautas does not want a strong Poland or Polish-Bohemian Union. He wants a weak fragmented Poland
     
  18. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Perhaps we could have Poland partitioned between Siemowit IV and Wladyslaw Opolczyk, Wladyslaw Opolczyk and the teutons planned to partition Poland in OTL perhaps we could have Siemowit IV join that plan.

    Aside from being fragmented Poland might suffer in the Hussite revolts and sieges and Sigismund of Luxembourg is the defacto heir of Casimir III so Poland might be screwed in the long run...perhaps more parts of it would get absobed by Bohemia or Rus-Lithuania,teutons and Bohemia might partition Poland in the end.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  19. Vladislav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ukrainian (South) Slobodia
    You did the impossible. You forced me to remake this timeline from the beginning!
     
  20. Vladislav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ukrainian (South) Slobodia
    English version map

    [​IMG]