Reforms of Emperor Julian

Julian had given his purple robe to Procopius, his cousin, before sending him into Armenia in an attempt to draw away the main Persian force.

Procopius gave said robe to the new emperor Jovian and stated he wished to retire. After Jovian died shortly thereafter, the new emperor ordered Procopius to be arrested. He fled, arrived at Constantinople and bribed the two legions stationed there to proclaim himself emperor. He also struck an alliance with the Goths, claiming he had assumed the legitimate autorithy on account of his being a member of Constantine's family. He was eventually defeated by Valens.

Unless something drastic changes and Julian changes his mind regarding marriage pdq, Procopius will be his successor.
I always thought that, given that Julian is going to face a lot of trouble spots at one time (likely the Alemanni will still try something at some point, the Great Conspiracy, the Goths, trouble along the Sassanian border), he would promote Procopius to Caesar, making him de facto heir while also providing Julian with a loyal co-emperor.

I had a look at Procopius. There's one problem about Procopius as heir:his age.His age is quite similar to Julian(in fact,he's actually older than Julian himself),so unless Julian knew that he's going to kick the bucket soon due to poor health,I don't think he will outlast Julian or be a really good heir.By the time Julian dies due to poor health,he will be at an age where he's pretty old as well.I think he's mostly just an interim successor.
Given Julian's aversion to marrying again after his wife's death, what if Procopius fathers children and Julian promotes them (with perhaps Procopius being a stopgap emperor), which would be not too dissimilar to what Augustus tried?

Another thing is the Persian campaign,what will convince Julian that he's not the second coming of Alexander the Great?If he took Ctesiphon,what will convince him not to stay there or try to continue east?Trying to conquer the Sassanid Empire is clearly unfeasible,but the guy seems infected with the "Alexander the Great syndrome".

Julian wasn't trying to conquer the Sassanian empire. He actually did have very strict war goals: Sack Ctesiphon and place Shapur's brother, Hormizd
on the Sassanian throne.
 
Questions:How feasible would it be if Julian made Procopius the co-emperor in the West and then annexed Mesopotamia?It's generally recognized here that conquering Mesopotamia is unfeasible because of problems like usurpations etc.If an emperor is permanently posted in the East however,how feasible would that be?The Sassanids will also be fairly crippled.
 
I had a look at Procopius. There's one problem about Procopius as heir:his age.His age is quite similar to Julian(in fact,he's actually older than Julian himself),so unless Julian knew that he's going to kick the bucket soon due to poor health,I don't think he will outlast Julian or be a really good heir.By the time Julian dies due to poor health,he will be at an age where he's pretty old as well.I think he's mostly just an interim successor.

I became convinced that Procopius is nothing more than an impostor. Only Zosimos speaks of Julian appointing him as Caesar, contemporary authors aren't mentioning this.

Another thing is the Persian campaign,what will convince Julian that he's not the second coming of Alexander the Great?If he took Ctesiphon,what will convince him not to stay there or try to continue east?Trying to conquer the Sassanid Empire is clearly unfeasible,but the guy seems infected with the "Alexander the Great syndrome".

Julian has to stop before even declaring war on Persia. The Empire has other problems than expanding in the east - you maybe remember the problems of my last timeline: the Empire is overstretched, an ambitious governor in the east can reach almost everything if he uses the wealth and the manpower of Mesopotamia. But this was Trajan, in a time when Rome had to fight on one front only.

Now, every border is attacked, and I don't think Rome has the means to occupy Mesopotamia or even Persia:eek:. Even beating the Sassanids will be hard to achieve, due to their superior tactics. In fact, it would be better to adopt a defensive stance on the east and concentrate on the Rhine and the Danube border, since the nomads are coming and are far more dangerous than the "civilized" Persians.

To resolve the problem, I have developed a funny POD: when marching to the eastern border, the army stopped at Carrhae IOTL. Now, imagine Julian having a nightmare in which he his beaten like Crassus was 400 years ago in the same place. As a religious man, Julian will certainly shrink from marching on. He will accept every offer of peace made by the Persians (maybe a symbolic Roman victory to satisfy the army, but nothing more) and then march to the west to deal with the Alemanni and Goths.

Thus, he survives 363 and can still try to become the second Alexander later on. I'm sure that he can live until at least 395 AD (he would be 64 years old, that was the age in which Trajan died).

Questions:How feasible would it be if Julian made Procopius the co-emperor in the West and then annexed Mesopotamia?It's generally recognized here that conquering Mesopotamia is unfeasible because of problems like usurpations etc.If an emperor is permanently posted in the East however,how feasible would that be?The Sassanids will also be fairly crippled.

We had this already in Optimus Princeps. It's simply to dangerous to have someone in the east who could become a potential usurper with the ressources of the whole east!!! THough, if an Emperor is imaginative enough, he could easily make sure that his representative in the east is closely supervised by a council of generals and a secret police. Also, give a certain perspective to such an official: one could become consul, after that prefect of the east, and be sent to Rome to hold an important office. If you know that your carrier isn't at its climax, you are much less tempted to use force to stay in your office.

But the Empire of the 4th century hasn't this problem. Its much to busy in the west to think of any conquests in the east. Stay defensive, beat the barbarians and then try to expand a bit.

To you, Neoplatonism might not sound that bad. But "it doesn't sound bad" is not the tagline of a successful growth religion. There was no fervor there. And its emphasis on the incorporeal at the expense of the corporeal did it no favors among normal people, who had to make due with the corporeal world. Especially when you consider that there will tend to be a strong anti-sex vibe among any group that is anti-corporeal (you can trace many western hangups on sexual matters to our Neoplatonic heritage).

At the end, I don't think we can deny the growing appeal of Christianity in that era, and the rapidly declining appeal of the former Roman State Religion and the various pantheons and philosophies associated with it. Christianity spoke to the people of the Empire, as Islam did to Arabs, and as Buddhism did to Indians and Chinese. And when we remember that Islam took near a millennium to truly supplant Christianity in the Middle East, its hard to think that even an entire dynasty of Julians would do anything to really arrest the growth of Christianity.

I always thought that, given that Julian is going to face a lot of trouble spots at one time (likely the Alemanni will still try something at some point, the Great Conspiracy, the Goths, trouble along the Sassanian border), he would promote Procopius to Caesar, making him de facto heir while also providing Julian with a loyal co-emperor.

As I said, Procopius is, in my view, a crook; but if you're right, he could become commander of the East (Magister militum per Orientem), though keep in mind my objections to such a mighty office.

Given Julian's aversion to marrying again after his wife's death, what if Procopius fathers children and Julian promotes them (with perhaps Procopius being a stopgap emperor), which would be not too dissimilar to what Augustus tried?

Julian would certainly find a way to secure his succession. But I advocate to wait a bit and than choose the most capable instead of promoting a child from his birth on.
 
We had this already in Optimus Princeps. It's simply to dangerous to have someone in the east who could become a potential usurper with the ressources of the whole east!!! THough, if an Emperor is imaginative enough, he could easily make sure that his representative in the east is closely supervised by a council of generals and a secret police. Also, give a certain perspective to such an official: one could become consul, after that prefect of the east, and be sent to Rome to hold an important office. If you know that your carrier isn't at its climax, you are much less tempted to use force to stay in your office.
Earlier I said make someone in the west co-emperor and then Julian himself annexes Mesopotamia and the stay permanently in the East to administrate the eastern portion of the empire.If someone can marshal the full resources of the east,it's HIM.

You know,if you want to change your mind about adopting an heir later on, it might be best if you butterfly his wife from dying,possibly in childbirth, and then giving birth to a number of healthy sons.
 
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Earlier I said make someone in the west co-emperor and then Julian himself annexes Mesopotamia and the stay permanently in the East to administrate the eastern portion of the empire.If someone can martial the full resources of the east,it's HIM.

That could work, though there are some problems with it:
a) the Empire has many problems in the west too, which may require the presence of someone as capable as Julian (do you have a name? who could it be?)
b) I don't see Julian, who basically wants the administrative efficiency of the Dominate + the republican facade of the Principate, residing in Seleucia Ctesiphon and building up an oriental court there.
c) If Julian decides to ignores a) and b), there is still the problem that he is very far away not only from Treverorum, Roma and Mediolanum, but also from Constantinopolis! From Mesopotamia, he can rule neither the west nor the east of the Empire.

I think the best we can achieve is Julianus as he travelling emperor (like Hadrianus or Aurelianus), who moves from one border to the other (instead of letting his generals fight the war, as all the other Late Roman Emperors did), has residencies in all important cities and rely on the Praefecti to govern his Empire.

You know,if you want to change your mind about adopting an heir later on, it might be best if you butterfly his wife from dying,possibly in childbirth, and then giving birth to a number of healthy sons.

When does his wife dying? Before 361 or after?
 
That could work, though there are some problems with it:
a) the Empire has many problems in the west too, which may require the presence of someone as capable as Julian (do you have a name? who could it be?)
b) I don't see Julian, who basically wants the administrative efficiency of the Dominate + the republican facade of the Principate, residing in Seleucia Ctesiphon and building up an oriental court there.
c) If Julian decides to ignores a) and b), there is still the problem that he is very far away not only from Treverorum, Roma and Mediolanum, but also from Constantinopolis! From Mesopotamia, he can rule neither the west nor the east of the Empire.

I think the best we can achieve is Julianus as he travelling emperor (like Hadrianus or Aurelianus), who moves from one border to the other (instead of letting his generals fight the war, as all the other Late Roman Emperors did), has residencies in all important cities and rely on the Praefecti to govern his Empire.



When does his wife dying? Before 361 or after?

His wife died in 360,between the time his troops acclaimed him emperor and when Constantius kicked the bucket and named him heir.

In the event Julian takes Mesopotamia,I think ruling from Antioch would be in his best interests.Of course,this should be done after the western half has been fixed.
 
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I became convinced that Procopius is nothing more than an impostor. Only Zosimos speaks of Julian appointing him as Caesar, contemporary authors aren't mentioning this.
Because Julian never promoted him Caesar. What Julian did do however was allow Procopius to act as a diversion to lure Shapur north while he struck south with the main force.

Julian has to stop before even declaring war on Persia. The Empire has other problems than expanding in the east - you maybe remember the problems of my last timeline: the Empire is overstretched, an ambitious governor in the east can reach almost everything if he uses the wealth and the manpower of Mesopotamia. But this was Trajan, in a time when Rome had to fight on one front only.
And then Julian is shocked, shocked, when the eastern legions proclaim a usurper against him when he heads back west. Julian had the right idea. The eastern legions weren't too fond of him-a short while ago they were marching against this upstart usurper, and suddenly he's their emperor. He needs to win their loyalty. That is done by winning a war against Persia with, if a couple less hiccups are made, is very doable.

Also, he was never trying to conquer territory.As I said, he had a concrete goal: Place Shapur's brother on the throne of Persia while sacking Ctesiphon, thus making Persia a non threat for a short while and winning the loyalty of the eastern legions.

Now, every border is attacked, and I don't think Rome has the means to occupy Mesopotamia or even Persia:eek:
Julian never wanted to do this. .
Even beating the Sassanids will be hard to achieve, due to their superior tactics.
What?

In fact, it would be better to adopt a defensive stance on the east and concentrate on the Rhine and the Danube border, since the nomads are coming and are far more dangerous than the "civilized" Persians.
For Julian, the best scenario for him was winning over the loyalty of the eastern legions. The best way to do that is sack Ctesiphon and return home.
To resolve the problem, I have developed a funny POD: when marching to the eastern border, the army stopped at Carrhae IOTL. Now, imagine Julian having a nightmare in which he his beaten like Crassus was 400 years ago in the same place. As a religious man, Julian will certainly shrink from marching on. He will accept every offer of peace made by the Persians (maybe a symbolic Roman victory to satisfy the army, but nothing more) and then march to the west to deal with the Alemanni and Goths.
And then the legions will view him as even more of a coward, given that the main Sassanian army is up in Armenia. All it takes for Julian to win the war is for his army to not stall at the gates of Ctesiphon. It's not that difficult.
Thus, he survives 363 and can still try to become the second Alexander later on. I'm sure that he can live until at least 395 AD (he would be 64 years old, that was the age in which Trajan died).
He survives 363, but upon returning west to deal with problems there, is met with the news that the eastern legions are in revolt against him and so may not survive 364.


We had this already in Optimus Princeps. It's simply to dangerous to have someone in the east who could become a potential usurper with the ressources of the whole east!!! THough, if an Emperor is imaginative enough, he could easily make sure that his representative in the east is closely supervised by a council of generals and a secret police. Also, give a certain perspective to such an official: one could become consul, after that prefect of the east, and be sent to Rome to hold an important office. If you know that your carrier isn't at its climax, you are much less tempted to use force to stay in your office.
Procopius would almost certainly be loyal. The problem is the eastern legions won't be unless he can prove to them they should.




As I said, Procopius is, in my view, a crook; but if you're right, he could become commander of the East (Magister militum per Orientem), though keep in mind my objections to such a mighty office.
Procopius rebelled against Valens when he was about to get executed. When backed into a corner, it's no surprise he made a gamble, and its equally no surprise that he forged a backstory that made it look like he was legitimate. Every usurper will go to great lengths to make them look legitimate.

The point is, during Julian's reign, he showed he was willing to rely heavily on Procopius. Given that Julian doesn't have many people he can trust yet, and given that Procopius is a cousin of his, it stands to reason that Procopius is a man Julian will look to to rely on, especially if he doesn't have any kids.


Julian would certainly find a way to secure his succession. But I advocate to wait a bit and than choose the most capable instead of promoting a child from his birth on.
Except, more than most likely, that's not what Julian is going to do. The history of Rome in particular has shown us that when an emperor has a living male relative, one of his male relatives will be his heir. The five good emperors was remarkable because the emperors didn't, and even then, I believe the Antonines were at least distantly related in some form. Assuming Procopius is alive or his children are, one of them will be Julian's heir.
 
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Question:I understand the rational behind conducting a successful campaign against the Sassanids to gain the support of the eastern army,but what is the point of installing a 'friendly' king(such as Khosrau II) in Ctesiphon? They will most likely turn on you when you are distracted.Trying to gain Armenia only also seems like a complete waste of time.It's not the first time the Romans gain Armenia and then suddenly lose it ten to twenty years later.Why not just post a co-emperor in the west and then settle the Persian question permanently if the emperor has the ability to?If the Sassanids are without Mesopotamia,they will most likely be crippled like what happened after they lost it to the Arabs.Or is Julian simply trying to make the brother of Shapur II a client ruler of a separate kingdom in Mesopotamia?
 
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Question:I understand the rational behind conducting a successful campaign against the Sassanids to gain the support of the eastern army,but what is the point of installing a 'friendly' king(such as Khosrau II) in Ctesiphon?
The same reason Maurice did the same for Persia and Trajan did the same for his conquests. Even if it doesn't work out in the long run, it's infinitely better than having an embittered enemy. Plus, it was a convenient cassus belli, and it can't hurt. Shapur's brother had been residing in Roman territory since Constantine's days if Wikipedia is to be believed (so he'd be pretty old by then if true), the Romans keeping him in their backpocket for just such the time where he would come in handy for someone like Julian.
They will most likely turn on you when you are distracted.Trying to gain Armenia only also seems like a complete waste of time.It's not the first time the Romans gain Armenia and then suddenly lose it ten to twenty years later.Why not just post a co-emperor in the west and then settle the Persian question permanently if the emperor has the ability to?If the Sassanids are without Mesopotamia,they will most likely be crippled like what happened after they lost it to the Arabs.Or is Julian simply trying to make the brother of Shapur II a client ruler of a separate kingdom in Mesopotamia?
Holding Mesopotamia is incredibly difficult for the Romans. It's also completely unneccessary from Julian's perspective. The eastern frontier by this point was one of just a bunch of massive fortified cities, which effectively made the frontier static. Most wars from the time of Diocletian until clusterfuck after Maurice's death, were just static border wars fought for control of a few strategic towns. The Romans had effectively created a balance of power, and I somehow suspect that they feared more an enemy sweeping down on the Sassanians and upsetting the balance, rather than maintaining the enemy they knew.

There's also the associated costs, time, and effort needed to assimilate and set up stable governance over Mesopotamia, and an expansion of forces is always needed to cover the extension of the frontier. Forces that could better be used elsewhere.
 
The same reason Maurice did the same for Persia and Trajan did the same for his conquests. Even if it doesn't work out in the long run, it's infinitely better than having an embittered enemy. Plus, it was a convenient cassus belli, and it can't hurt. Shapur's brother had been residing in Roman territory since Constantine's days if Wikipedia is to be believed (so he'd be pretty old by then if true), the Romans keeping him in their backpocket for just such the time where he would come in handy for someone like Julian.

Holding Mesopotamia is incredibly difficult for the Romans. It's also completely unneccessary from Julian's perspective. The eastern frontier by this point was one of just a bunch of massive fortified cities, which effectively made the frontier static. Most wars from the time of Diocletian until clusterfuck after Maurice's death, were just static border wars fought for control of a few strategic towns. The Romans had effectively created a balance of power, and I somehow suspect that they feared more an enemy sweeping down on the Sassanians and upsetting the balance, rather than maintaining the enemy they knew.

There's also the associated costs, time, and effort needed to assimilate and set up stable governance over Mesopotamia, and an expansion of forces is always needed to cover the extension of the frontier. Forces that could better be used elsewhere.
But wouldn't obliterating the Persians as a viable force allow more troops to be sent to the west to fight the barbarians in the long term?Wouldn't existing forces garrisoned along the Persian border be sufficient to garrison Mesopotamia?From what we've seen after the Arabs took Mesopotamia,the Sassanid Empire completely collapsed.If an emperor is permanently stationed in the East(with a colleague holding things in the west),probably in Antioch,wouldn't that make holding Mesopotamia much easier?The place is also quite wealthy.
 
But wouldn't obliterating the Persians as a viable force allow more troops to be sent to the west to fight the barbarians in the long term?

Not really. Some faction (perhaps the Hephtalites?) up north will sweep into the vacuum. Plus, Mesopotamia is difficult to defend from the west on its own.
 
Not really. Some faction (perhaps the Hephtalites?) up north will sweep into the vacuum. Plus, Mesopotamia is difficult to defend from the west on its own.
What about just setting up a separate client state in Mesopotamia under Shapur II's brother without having him taking the whole thing?
 
What about just setting up a separate client state in Mesopotamia under Shapur II's brother without having him taking the whole thing?

Which part of Mesopotamia? The whole until Babylon? Or just the north?

Also, I'm thinking about where, if Julian manages to set up the pagan church, its main sanctuary would be. Rome? Constantinople?

And would it be organized like the early church (some kind of democracy), would it rely on the old priests in the provinces (imperial cult) or would it be organized along a new, hierarchical principle like today's catholic church?
 
Which part of Mesopotamia? The whole until Babylon? Or just the north?

Also, I'm thinking about where, if Julian manages to set up the pagan church, its main sanctuary would be. Rome? Constantinople?

And would it be organized like the early church (some kind of democracy), would it rely on the old priests in the provinces (imperial cult) or would it be organized along a new, hierarchical principle like today's catholic church?
Well given that Julian's idea of paganism was heavily influenced by the Christian view of pagans, and just given the general influence Christianity had on him, I can see him modelling the Church's hierarchy for his henotheistic religion.
 
Well given that Julian's idea of paganism was heavily influenced by the Christian view of pagans, and just given the general influence Christianity had on him, I can see him modelling the Church's hierarchy for his henotheistic religion.

And will other gods be venerated too? I can't see him creating a religion for Sol (was it Sol? Or which god was Julian's god?) while completly ignoring Jupiter as an ancient Roman god, or Mithras as the favorite of the legions.
 
I highly doubt that, if Julian decides to reform the Greco-Roman religion, that it's going to develop into a monotheistic religion.

Not that it's not possible, after all, if any of the pagan faiths came to pass, chances are it would be a toss up between the major cults, Sol Invictus, Isis & Mithras.

No, I think if anything it'd be something like what CKII did to the Pagan religions in the Old Gods expansion, reform it with codified rites and what not to better keep up with Christianity.
 
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