Reformation in Spain

So if there was a strong reformation post-Luther in the urban Aragonese region of Spain, does this threaten to destabilize the Spanish crown? Obviously this alone isn't enough for re-splitting, but crackdowns might cause bad blood.
 
How exactly Reformation gets a real hold in Aragon? Devellopment of Protestantism in Europe is essentially tied up to political patronage (German aristocracy, Navarre-Bearn, England, etc.) able to provide a protection and to gather religious and intellectual elites.

It's true that contact (trough trade roads or intellectual channels) does help but it doesn't ammounts to much without this basic background.
Kings of Castille and Aragon have really little interest protecting Reformation : they couldn't tolerate it in Netherlands where they had to share their authority with local cities and families, I don't really see why they would do so in a region they have full authority in, especially with a political culture which was pretty munch bent on religious unity.

So, I think this point must be adressed, on how Protestantism gets rooted in Aragon to really be able to answer how it would influence the geopolitical situation.
 
How exactly Reformation gets a real hold in Aragon? Devellopment of Protestantism in Europe is essentially tied up to political patronage (German aristocracy, Navarre-Bearn, England, etc.) able to provide a protection and to gather religious and intellectual elites.

I thought the reformation spread through a mix of political patronage (England, Saxony, and Navarre) and "through the bottom" (Germany???). Didn't Luthor encourage his following to detach others away from the church?

OK, let's say it slips in by trade into some of the cities and the urban elite think of it as a ticket to sharing power with the aristocracy (like Netherlands). Then before it goes further West, the crown finds out about it.
 
I thought the reformation spread through a mix of political patronage (England, Saxony, and Navarre) and "through the bottom" (Germany???).
Lutherianism managed to grew out not because it was a popular doctrine, but because it was echoed in secular institutions of its time : both autonomous enough to produce their own perception of the world, not autonomous enough to still be at odds with imperial/royal/ecclesiastical institutions.
Not to mean you didn't have a large popular echo in Protestantism, but it was from the top to the bottom when it worked, and Peasants' War shows well what happened to the popular Protestantism that went against it.

On several regard, Protestantism was found as a great answer to people that for various reasons (a mix of cultural, economical, spiritual, political, etc. causes) but was largely structurated by intellectual/political elites on lower classes.

Didn't Luthor encourage his following to detach others away from the church?
Pope Superman did managed to save the day, tough, in Superman V : Indulge me.

OK, let's say it slips in by trade into some of the cities and the urban elite think of it as a ticket to sharing power with the aristocracy (like Netherlands).
This is overly economist as an explanation, tough : many economical elites didn't really shift (for exemple, in France where Navarre or Aubrac was Protestantized, and not Paris or Picardie) because their (and anyone's, really) conception of the world isn't a matter of pure interest (the Weberian-Randian mash-up, as quoted it's, is unbased) but also of ideological, political and cultural perception. In Spain, we have upper classes that for a long time, made alliances on the base of a domanial-mercantile economy from one part, association with a growingly bureaucratized state that built a lot of its legitimation on being a religious spearhead.

Reformation main spots in Spain in the XVIth were rather in regions such as Central Spain, trough humanist channels, which tended to have a slightly more universalist approach (altough this doesn't mean humanism is the same as protestantism, not by a long shot)

As for Netherlands, an important part on its Protestantisation, apart from being a largely different culture (politically and institutionally) than Spain (with a large stress on devotio moderna), is that they were largely autonomous and had indeed one of the few popular incitatives into making Protestantism majoritary (essentially trough contact and refugees from Germany). Which is a context proper to Netherlands (and, actually, not even successful on the whole of it but only a part, see the Union of Arras) on which a growing sense of being "not Spanish" from the beggining and increased by the repression, certainly played fully (the rise of national or regional identities certainly helped Protestantism to affirm itself).

Then before it goes further West, the crown finds out about it.
You mean they just ignore that a large part of its institutional, cultural, economical leading classes turns Protestant? It seems hard to swallow, especially giving the nothing short of paranoid religious/political inquiries and decisions on Protestantism.
 
Keep in mind also that a lot of the fuel, per se, for the spread of Lutheranism and Protestantism as a whole was found in widespread clerical abuse (e.g. simony, absenteeism, disregard for the vow of celibacy, etc) which was mostly purged from Castile and Aragon following some pretty no nonsense reforms by the Catholic Monarchs.
 
OK, so the Dutch reformation was reliant on newcomers, not just converts. I missed the memo.

You mean they just ignore that a large part of its institutional, cultural, economical leading classes turns Protestant? It seems hard to swallow, especially giving the nothing short of paranoid religious/political inquiries and decisions on Protestantism.

Ok you've convinced me that the reformation reaching there simply isn't going to reach Aragonese areas in the first place, but why does a monarch immediately know about conversions so quickly? The local crown agents and govneors only look to make sure the law if obeyed and taxes are paid. The church would know, but unless the bishop in charge of the area sits at court (in which case... he's at court), probably doesn't talk to the crown on a regular basis. So unless the king's family personally made a visit, wouldn't they be largely oblivious? There wasn't really a dedicated organization into stamping out Heresy until he Inquisition, so until then no one's job is really looking out for Lutherism
 
OK, so the Dutch reformation was reliant on newcomers, not just converts. I missed the memo.

Ok you've convinced me that the reformation reaching there simply isn't going to reach Aragonese areas in the first place, but why does a monarch immediately know about conversions so quickly? The local crown agents and govneors only look to make sure the law if obeyed and taxes are paid. The church would know, but unless the bishop in charge of the area sits at court (in which case... he's at court), probably doesn't talk to the crown on a regular basis. So unless the king's family personally made a visit, wouldn't they be largely oblivious? There wasn't really a dedicated organization into stamping out Heresy until he Inquisition, so until then no one's job is really looking out for Lutherism

There's the rub - the Inquistion was instituted in 1478, Martin Luther submitted his 95 Theses in 1517.
 
Ok you've convinced me that the reformation reaching there simply isn't going to reach Aragonese areas in the first place
Oh, it did reached and I could see it being more important than IOTL giving some tweak (for exemple, making Barcelona more of an humanist hub). The problem is how to make it past the stage of "let's build a discussion circle".

but why does a monarch immediately know about conversions so quickly?

First converts generally were intellectual or political types, and with a religious organisation in Spain that was directly overseen by the throne, and a Spanish political culture that was much about being "entierly Christian, without any heresy, pagans, infidel, etc.", these weren't exactly going unnoticed. One or two wasn't that much of a problem, but trying to go past the "Protestantism seems a swell idea" to "let's advance the cause of Reformation" was a big no-no.
Again, focusing on the economist view ("they only cared about taxes"), and dismissing political and ideological parts isn't the best approach IMO.
 
IDK if this was mentioned, but in Aragon Protestantism taking root is about as likely as on the moon. The scary Spanish Inquisition? It was originally the Aragonese Inquisition. Under Enrique IV the kings of Castile had a Moorish bodyguard. It was only under influence from Torquemada (and another Dominican from Sicily, de Barberi) that Isabel la Catolica was persuaded to revamp the Castilian Inquisition. See, prior kings of Castile, whether they were too weak or just didn't like sharing power or whatever, sorta just allowed the Inquisition to lapse and revived it when they needed it, and let it lapse again when they didn't. Torquemada drummed into Isabel's head the need for an inquisitorial squad in Castile by playing on her religious devotion.

Now, her daughter, Juana, far more fond of the Burgundian-Parisian flavour of Catholicism than that of Spain's fear-centric one MIGHT have seen a change in this. After all, part of the reason she was kept imprisoned in her later years was due to her religious "deviance" - refusing the sacraments, not avertingher eyes when the Host was raised etc. But as I say, to get Protestantism in Spain you need a pretty early POD (la Beltraneja becoming queen instead of Isabel; Torquemada dying before the Inquisition (although another problem was that Luther was Augustinian and Torquemada, de Barberi etc were all Dominicans and the two orders have a long standing rivalry IIRC) is instituted; conquest of Granada is unsuccessful; the king of Castile/Aragon falling out with the pope a la England/Sweden). And all of this would be early enough (mostly anyway) that the Reformation might not start with Luther or even take on a different character entirely.
 
IDK if this was mentioned, but in Aragon Protestantism taking root is about as likely as on the moon. The scary Spanish Inquisition? It was originally the Aragonese Inquisition. Under Enrique IV the kings of Castile had a Moorish bodyguard. It was only under influence from Torquemada (and another Dominican from Sicily, de Barberi) that Isabel la Catolica was persuaded to revamp the Castilian Inquisition. See, prior kings of Castile, whether they were too weak or just didn't like sharing power or whatever, sorta just allowed the Inquisition to lapse and revived it when they needed it, and let it lapse again when they didn't. Torquemada drummed into Isabel's head the need for an inquisitorial squad in Castile by playing on her religious devotion.

Only partially true : there was no such thing as an Aragonese Inquisition, but a Pontifical Inquisition in Aragon, at it was led by the Pope's envoys, not by the King's. Same institution as in southern France and northern Italy. The Inquisitors in Aragon, such as the famous Nicolas Eymerich, could and were frequently at odds with the royal power. While the Spanish Inquisition took many features from the Pontifical Inquisition, it had also many innovations, not least the unified Suprema between Aragon and Castile.

A good PoD would be killing the Spanish Inquisition in the bud. Pope Sixtus IV received many complaints about the Inquisition in 1482 and created an appelate court in Sevilla in 1483. His death in 1484 stopped short the crisis in the making, as Pope Innocent VIII was way more conciliant. If the Spanish Inquisition is abolished to the status of a Pontifical Institution in Spain, with the bishops in command, its efficiency in heretics-hunting would be downgraded. Especially if humanist clergymen, like Cardinal Margarit, were tempted by protecting some "original" theologians. The all situation could be very similar to France's OTL.
 
Only partially true : there was no such thing as an Aragonese Inquisition, but a Pontifical Inquisition in Aragon, at it was led by the Pope's envoys, not by the King's. Same institution as in southern France and northern Italy. The Inquisitors in Aragon, such as the famous Nicolas Eymerich, could and were frequently at odds with the royal power. While the Spanish Inquisition took many features from the Pontifical Inquisition, it had also many innovations, not least the unified Suprema between Aragon and Castile.

A good PoD would be killing the Spanish Inquisition in the bud. Pope Sixtus IV received many complaints about the Inquisition in 1482 and created an appelate court in Sevilla in 1483. His death in 1484 stopped short the crisis in the making, as Pope Innocent VIII was way more conciliant. If the Spanish Inquisition is abolished to the status of a Pontifical Institution in Spain, with the bishops in command, its efficiency in heretics-hunting would be downgraded. Especially if humanist clergymen, like Cardinal Margarit, were tempted by protecting some "original" theologians. The all situation could be very similar to France's OTL.

Thanks for the correction. I only found all this out recently, so I haven't had a chance to sift through all the info. Didn't Fernando and Isabel also threaten to do something when Sixtus/Innocent started looking at the abuse of power that was going on? I vaguely recall reading a footnote that said something along those lines.

What would the repercussions be of a Spain that's not as rigidly orthodox as OTL? Or rather, a Spanish Inquisition that's perhaps not so powerful? Or would Torquemada still manage to get it there (if only for the remainder of Isabel's life)?
 
Thanks for the correction. I only found all this out recently, so I haven't had a chance to sift through all the info. Didn't Fernando and Isabel also threaten to do something when Sixtus/Innocent started looking at the abuse of power that was going on? I vaguely recall reading a footnote that said something along those lines.

What would the repercussions be of a Spain that's not as rigidly orthodox as OTL? Or rather, a Spanish Inquisition that's perhaps not so powerful? Or would Torquemada still manage to get it there (if only for the remainder of Isabel's life)?

Fernando and Isabel were not pleased, but things never went into full-blown conflict, as Innocent VIII tried not to antagonize them. Torquemada did not come out of nowhere : members of the Clergy in Spain were campaigning against the "false Christians" (Enrique IV's confessor, for instance, published anti-semitic treaties even if he was himself a converso). It would take a very strong convergence of interests (the Pope against the Kings, the lay elites against the Church power, the bishops against the religious orders) to not have a form or another of religious enforcement institution. One form of such convergence could be a separate Inquisition in Aragon and in Castile, meaning possible different religious life in both crowns. In Aragon especially, the great noble estates could be "conversos safeplaces" as the Inquisition's power waned in front of the aristocracy.
 
From what I remember was that Charles V had basically cut off Spain from the rest of Europe except his realm. Anything to prevent protestantism to enter Spain/Iberia.

If it is true then someone has organise it to spread the new teachings. As long as you sew the new teaching a few branches will grow. And that will create the chaos.

Basically making it favorable for France and the Ottomans.
 
Lutherianism managed to grew out not because it was a popular doctrine, but because it was echoed in secular institutions of its time : both autonomous enough to produce their own perception of the world, not autonomous enough to still be at odds with imperial/royal/ecclesiastical institutions.

Could you expand on this? Surely becoming Protestant was inherently at odds with ecclesiastical and imperial insitutions?

On several regard, Protestantism was found as a great answer to people that for various reasons (a mix of cultural, economical, spiritual, political, etc. causes) but was largely structurated by intellectual/political elites on lower classes.

What would you say the main reasons were (outside England)?

This is overly economist as an explanation, tough : many economical elites didn't really shift (for exemple, in France where Navarre or Aubrac was Protestantized, and not Paris or Picardie) because their (and anyone's, really) conception of the world isn't a matter of pure interest (the Weberian-Randian mash-up, as quoted it's, is unbased) but also of ideological, political and cultural perception.

Looking at Europe more broadly, what would you say the main ideological/political/cultural perceptions that caused mercantile types to lean towards Protestantism? I know it is conplex, but could you outline it as best you can simply?

Reformation main spots in Spain in the XVIth were rather in regions such as Central Spain, trough humanist channels, which tended to have a slightly more universalist approach (altough this doesn't mean humanism is the same as protestantism, not by a long shot)

What do you mean by 'humanism' and 'universalism' in this context?

Apologies for the raft of questions. You always seem to have so much insight in your posts but some of your terms seem to be translated with slightly different meanings, which prevents me from fully understanding them.
 
I would suggest keeping in mind that in many ways Spain (Aragon and Castile) had both undergone something similar to a religious renaissance during the 15th century, in the process resolving many of the issues which would lead to popular support for the Reformation in other parts of Europe. The Iberian kingdoms were at the frontiers of Christendom and had undergone an intense period of christianization in the period immediately prior to Luther's theses during which it had driven the conversos and moriscos from their kingdom with fire and blood, whipping the populace up in arms against a common enemy in an effort to build a collective identity. Much of the corruption had been weeded out of the Spanish Church and was coming out of a series of religious "successes" with plenty of pious leaders emerging from within the church. Importantly, the Reconquista had just come to a victorious end after more than half a milennia of near-constant bloody warfare and the Spanish populace had served as a bulwark against the islamic kingdoms for the duriation.

Interestingly, once Tridentine Catholicism started being implemented, Spain actually proved quite slow in making the switch. There were extensive negotiations between the King of Spain, the Spanish Inquisition and the Papacy over who had the right to propogate what practices and how.

I don't think that anything like the reformation would be able to get a grip at any point after Isabella's ascension, since most of the factors which would commonly lead to reformist tendencies in a region had largely been addressed before Luther was even born.

The Low Countries didn't go through any of these developments and naturally clashed with the Spanish version of Catholicism as a result and were more susceptible to protestant reforms.
 
I would suggest keeping in mind that in many ways Spain (Aragon and Castile) had both undergone something similar to a religious renaissance during the 15th century, in the process resolving many of the issues which would lead to popular support for the Reformation in other parts of Europe. The Iberian kingdoms were at the frontiers of Christendom and had undergone an intense period of christianization in the period immediately prior to Luther's theses during which it had driven the conversos and moriscos from their kingdom with fire and blood, whipping the populace up in arms against a common enemy in an effort to build a collective identity. Much of the corruption had been weeded out of the Spanish Church and was coming out of a series of religious "successes" with plenty of pious leaders emerging from within the church. Importantly, the Reconquista had just come to a victorious end after more than half a milennia of near-constant bloody warfare and the Spanish populace had served as a bulwark against the islamic kingdoms for the duriation.

Problem with your suggestion is that a POD undoing that would leave all of Aragon vulnerable, not just the areas I mentioned, and possibly the Castile portion too.
 
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