So if there was a strong reformation post-Luther in the urban Aragonese region of Spain, does this threaten to destabilize the Spanish crown? Obviously this alone isn't enough for re-splitting, but crackdowns might cause bad blood.
How exactly Reformation gets a real hold in Aragon? Devellopment of Protestantism in Europe is essentially tied up to political patronage (German aristocracy, Navarre-Bearn, England, etc.) able to provide a protection and to gather religious and intellectual elites.
Lutherianism managed to grew out not because it was a popular doctrine, but because it was echoed in secular institutions of its time : both autonomous enough to produce their own perception of the world, not autonomous enough to still be at odds with imperial/royal/ecclesiastical institutions.I thought the reformation spread through a mix of political patronage (England, Saxony, and Navarre) and "through the bottom" (Germany???).
Pope Superman did managed to save the day, tough, in Superman V : Indulge me.Didn't Luthor encourage his following to detach others away from the church?
This is overly economist as an explanation, tough : many economical elites didn't really shift (for exemple, in France where Navarre or Aubrac was Protestantized, and not Paris or Picardie) because their (and anyone's, really) conception of the world isn't a matter of pure interest (the Weberian-Randian mash-up, as quoted it's, is unbased) but also of ideological, political and cultural perception. In Spain, we have upper classes that for a long time, made alliances on the base of a domanial-mercantile economy from one part, association with a growingly bureaucratized state that built a lot of its legitimation on being a religious spearhead.OK, let's say it slips in by trade into some of the cities and the urban elite think of it as a ticket to sharing power with the aristocracy (like Netherlands).
You mean they just ignore that a large part of its institutional, cultural, economical leading classes turns Protestant? It seems hard to swallow, especially giving the nothing short of paranoid religious/political inquiries and decisions on Protestantism.Then before it goes further West, the crown finds out about it.
You mean they just ignore that a large part of its institutional, cultural, economical leading classes turns Protestant? It seems hard to swallow, especially giving the nothing short of paranoid religious/political inquiries and decisions on Protestantism.
OK, so the Dutch reformation was reliant on newcomers, not just converts. I missed the memo.
Ok you've convinced me that the reformation reaching there simply isn't going to reach Aragonese areas in the first place, but why does a monarch immediately know about conversions so quickly? The local crown agents and govneors only look to make sure the law if obeyed and taxes are paid. The church would know, but unless the bishop in charge of the area sits at court (in which case... he's at court), probably doesn't talk to the crown on a regular basis. So unless the king's family personally made a visit, wouldn't they be largely oblivious? There wasn't really a dedicated organization into stamping out Heresy until he Inquisition, so until then no one's job is really looking out for Lutherism
There's the rub - the Inquistion was instituted in 1478, Martin Luther submitted his 95 Theses in 1517.
Oh, it did reached and I could see it being more important than IOTL giving some tweak (for exemple, making Barcelona more of an humanist hub). The problem is how to make it past the stage of "let's build a discussion circle".Ok you've convinced me that the reformation reaching there simply isn't going to reach Aragonese areas in the first place
but why does a monarch immediately know about conversions so quickly?
IDK if this was mentioned, but in Aragon Protestantism taking root is about as likely as on the moon. The scary Spanish Inquisition? It was originally the Aragonese Inquisition. Under Enrique IV the kings of Castile had a Moorish bodyguard. It was only under influence from Torquemada (and another Dominican from Sicily, de Barberi) that Isabel la Catolica was persuaded to revamp the Castilian Inquisition. See, prior kings of Castile, whether they were too weak or just didn't like sharing power or whatever, sorta just allowed the Inquisition to lapse and revived it when they needed it, and let it lapse again when they didn't. Torquemada drummed into Isabel's head the need for an inquisitorial squad in Castile by playing on her religious devotion.
Only partially true : there was no such thing as an Aragonese Inquisition, but a Pontifical Inquisition in Aragon, at it was led by the Pope's envoys, not by the King's. Same institution as in southern France and northern Italy. The Inquisitors in Aragon, such as the famous Nicolas Eymerich, could and were frequently at odds with the royal power. While the Spanish Inquisition took many features from the Pontifical Inquisition, it had also many innovations, not least the unified Suprema between Aragon and Castile.
A good PoD would be killing the Spanish Inquisition in the bud. Pope Sixtus IV received many complaints about the Inquisition in 1482 and created an appelate court in Sevilla in 1483. His death in 1484 stopped short the crisis in the making, as Pope Innocent VIII was way more conciliant. If the Spanish Inquisition is abolished to the status of a Pontifical Institution in Spain, with the bishops in command, its efficiency in heretics-hunting would be downgraded. Especially if humanist clergymen, like Cardinal Margarit, were tempted by protecting some "original" theologians. The all situation could be very similar to France's OTL.
Thanks for the correction. I only found all this out recently, so I haven't had a chance to sift through all the info. Didn't Fernando and Isabel also threaten to do something when Sixtus/Innocent started looking at the abuse of power that was going on? I vaguely recall reading a footnote that said something along those lines.
What would the repercussions be of a Spain that's not as rigidly orthodox as OTL? Or rather, a Spanish Inquisition that's perhaps not so powerful? Or would Torquemada still manage to get it there (if only for the remainder of Isabel's life)?
Lutherianism managed to grew out not because it was a popular doctrine, but because it was echoed in secular institutions of its time : both autonomous enough to produce their own perception of the world, not autonomous enough to still be at odds with imperial/royal/ecclesiastical institutions.
On several regard, Protestantism was found as a great answer to people that for various reasons (a mix of cultural, economical, spiritual, political, etc. causes) but was largely structurated by intellectual/political elites on lower classes.
This is overly economist as an explanation, tough : many economical elites didn't really shift (for exemple, in France where Navarre or Aubrac was Protestantized, and not Paris or Picardie) because their (and anyone's, really) conception of the world isn't a matter of pure interest (the Weberian-Randian mash-up, as quoted it's, is unbased) but also of ideological, political and cultural perception.
Reformation main spots in Spain in the XVIth were rather in regions such as Central Spain, trough humanist channels, which tended to have a slightly more universalist approach (altough this doesn't mean humanism is the same as protestantism, not by a long shot)
I would suggest keeping in mind that in many ways Spain (Aragon and Castile) had both undergone something similar to a religious renaissance during the 15th century, in the process resolving many of the issues which would lead to popular support for the Reformation in other parts of Europe. The Iberian kingdoms were at the frontiers of Christendom and had undergone an intense period of christianization in the period immediately prior to Luther's theses during which it had driven the conversos and moriscos from their kingdom with fire and blood, whipping the populace up in arms against a common enemy in an effort to build a collective identity. Much of the corruption had been weeded out of the Spanish Church and was coming out of a series of religious "successes" with plenty of pious leaders emerging from within the church. Importantly, the Reconquista had just come to a victorious end after more than half a milennia of near-constant bloody warfare and the Spanish populace had served as a bulwark against the islamic kingdoms for the duriation.