"Whassamadda Wilson? Panini ain't good enough for ya?"
REDUX: Place In The Sun: What If Italy Joined The Central Powers?
- Thread starter Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth
- Start date
Strictly speaking that is not entirely accurate.Pizza literally didn't exist outside of lower Manhattan and Brooklyn in the 1910s. We might not get it at all in this scenario
Pizza that we would recognizeably *call* Pizza today might not have existed outside of that space, but things called Pizza that were close to modern pizza in some ways did very much exist.
Chapter XIV- Weariness and Determination
Chapter XIV
Weariness and Determination
The domestic reaction to the Battle of the Ligurian Sea was negative on both sides. As with so much else, the battle became a stand-in for far deeper problems. It was the last major combat of 1915- the French offensives on the Western Front and outside Nice were winding down- and came to represent the failure of all sides. Italy's entrance into the Central Powers had not turned the tide of the war, but merely added a new dimension and pushed all sides that much closer to collapse.
The Italians were humiliated by the loss of their precious dreadnought and the ease with which the French had penetrated their home waters. How, the government and people asked, could the Navy hope to protect Italy's long western coast? Suppose the French decided to bombard Rome or blockade Sicily- or, conversely, if the British sailed from Cairo to attack the south or east? Every coastal town now dreaded that it would be next, as millions looked around and found their shore defences wanting. Privately, the Italian General Staff concluded that there was nothing to be done and that the Entente could strike wherever they chose... though it was not all bad. The Regia Marina remained intact, the French had suffered too, and Admiral Amedo was not irreplaceable.
Paolo Thaon di Revel took command of the fleet and within days issued a memorandum which would dictate Italy's naval strategy throughout the war. There could be no more thought of striking against the Entente, rather, everything had to be concentrated in defence of the west coast. The absolute worst-case scenario would be for the British and French to bombard Rome, Genoa, and Naples, as well as cutting the mainland off from Libya and Sardinia. The former would be a humiliating propaganda defeat, which might topple the government and force the country to sue for peace, while the latter would mean writing off swathes of men and manpower. Fortunately, the country could still defend itself. Mine chains would go a long way towards keeping the Entente out, while the Austro-Hungarians could assume more responsibility for the east coast- this latter point grated on Italian patriotism, but there was nothing for it. Holding the ports of Cagliari in the west, Taranto and Brindisi in the east, and Naples and Palermo in the centre would secure home waters. U-Boats continued to harass Entente shipping out of Italian ports (with January 1916 proving to be the best month yet for the raiders) and the Royal Navy squadron in Malta remained moored. No defeat at sea could harm what was now Italy's most crucial link- the Alpine railroads over which Germany provided coal- nor, unlike Britain, could it be starved out by blockade.
Italy would survive, but any dreams the Regia Marina had of achieving glory now lay with the late Admiral Amedo.
This malaise was not limited to the naval war. As 1916 opened, the Italian people were grumbling ever louder, and the Italian government edged ever closer to panic. The problem was simple: Britain's refusal to trade with them (incomprehensible from their perspective!) had threatened to wreck their economy and increased their reliance on Germany- but they had no desire to commit to Berlin's camp. British hostility in spring 1915 had offended the Italians, yes, but it had also confused them. All they wanted was to trade with both sides and with the United States- but one camp seemed determined to make them an enemy, and the other seemed determined to milk them for everything they could think of. Economic collapse drew nearer and it became obvious that something had to give Sidney Sonnino had ridden this wave of emotion to power and gambled that joining the Central Powers would tip the balance quick enough to bring victory. Resumption of trade with the outside world and reparations could then stave off economic collapse... plus, the glory of victory would secure his own position as the greatest Italian since Garibaldi.
Three months had dispelled any illusions of a quick victory. Italian arms had been found wanting on land and at sea. East Africa was gone, Libya in peril, and the home waters open to assault. Far from breaking through to Grenoble, the Army had lost a few hundred metres around Bardonnechia and gained a few around Nice. For such a grand prize, tens of thousands of Italians would never come home. The concept of ultimate defeat lengthened in his mind's eye. Had he made a terrible mistake? Had he, like Justinian fifteen hundred years earlier, condemned Italy to years of war which would achieve nothing? Would he be toppled any day now and spend the rest of his life in exile, reviled by his countrymen?
The winter of 1915-16 proved every bit as bad as the Government had feared. A year ago, industrial production and the movement of goods had fallen to provide for the civilians- quite obviously, no one could afford such a luxury this year. Women begged to spend even a few hours a week working in a war plant, taking their children with them because it was the only place they could have heating. Despite the Government's best efforts, military production plummeted, and soon gunners at the front were limited to four or five rounds a day, with only a few hundred rounds of ammunition for every rifle. Logistics alone rendered launching another offensive out of the question. Only "essential"- read, military- travel was permitted, with civilians no longer allowed to purchase railway tickets. Trucks, buses, and motorcars were confiscated by the Government- one American journalist wrote that:
The General Staff understood that 1916 had to be the year. These were military officers, not economists- they saw the civilians suffering but did not have to care. Against the deaths of tens of thousands of their own men and much equipment, what did it matter if women and children went to bed hungry? Even an impoverished Rome was paradise compared to a mountain command post. Yet even from their limited perspective, things were falling apart. The Italian military had not been ready to go to war. Lessons which should have been learned after beating the Turks hadn't been. The meat grinder was chewing up everything- men, bullets, shells, even bandages and shovels- faster than the factories could possibly replace them. Conscription was not bringing in enough men, and it was rumoured that if nothing changed they would have to start press-ganging civilians. (In fact, this was never discussed at the highest levels, but it attests to just how unpopular the war had become in so little time.) Bardonnechia had been a complete waste of time, and no one wanted a repeat performance- but what was there to do but attack? Standing on the defensive outside Nice had racked up nearly as many casualties and sapped morale. The Army had to keep hammering in the Alps and pray that they found a weak link. Failure would mean the Army died of exhaustion up in the Alps, starved of the metal and flesh on which it fed.
Italy would either win in 1916, or it would collapse under its own weight. One thing was certain- it could not stand another "Cold Winter".
Nor were the French any more pleased. They had concluded from Italy's performance against Turkey, coupled with every stereotype about "slothful Italians", that the country would be a pushover. Failing to break through in the Alps was bad enough- but there were no trenches at sea! The Marine nationale had not had an opportunity to send the German fleet to the bottom, nor had it sunk enough submarines to claim a decisive victory. Italy had not even been a country when some of these admirals were children. While France had explored the seven seas and fought the British time and again, the Italian states had fought petty wars over a few square miles of broken rock! Italy's seafaring tradition had died out with the Venetians centuries ago, their captains reduced to selling themselves out to foreign kings. Here, at last, the Marine nationale could claim glory for France and prove its superiority over the Army.
Losing a handful of ships was bad enough but not fatal to the French cause- the loss of pride was far, far worse. The Army's losses of 1914 had been to a recognised peer, but this was to an unknown. Just how weak were the French, if they could not beat what was clearly a second-rate power? What were their prospects for winning- and more importantly, what prospects did the admirals have for their careers? Admiral Choceprat received a tongue-lashing from the Prime Minister, who made it clear that if he didn't get out there and send all the bastards to the bottom, he would find himself in charge of all the refuelling depots in Central Africa. The men in the trenches needed to hear victory, not ambiguity. Admirals might understand the strategic significance of blowing up Cagliari and sending the Comte di Cavour to the bottom, but that didn't matter to the man in the street.
France's problems were not limited to a mangled naval battle. No less than Italy, the weight of the conflict was closing in on her, squeezing her beyond anything thought possible even a year ago. Germany had used France's own strategy- forcing the enemy to fight a two-front war. The whole point of allying with Russia a quarter century ago was to force Germany to fight on two fronts, making up for deficiencies in manpower and materiel. If France could throw its whole weight onto the Western Front while Germany was distracted, prewar planners hypothesised, its prospects were good. Instead, Germany and Austria-Hungary held the Russians off while France was forced to fight on a second front for which it was ill-prepared. Following the failed offensives at Loos and Champagne, the British had taken over several dozen miles of the Western Front, simply because the French needed a reprieve. A conference at Paris over the winter reached the grim conclusion that there could be no "Big Push" in the West for the first half of 1916. France was stretched thin holding two fronts, and Britain was loath to sacrifice its commitments elsewhere.
France would fight on- there was nothing else to do- but the nation was growing weary. If 1916 did not bring some change, even one with more propaganda value than military substance, the pressure might just grow too much. Surrender was not, could never, be an option. Too much was at stake for everyone to lay down their arms and get to work rebuilding their homelands.
What were lives weighed up against borders, honour, and duty?
...and we're back. This is too much fun to let die, and I couldn't stand the idea of scrapping it and trying to do "Place In the Sun #3". No other idea means as much to me as this- it's probably the only creative endeavour I'll ever complete on this board. Which I'm okay with because it's mine, not a re-hash of someone else's idea. And if I let it die now, then in two, four, six years, I'll find the Google Doc in an archive and remember that I didn't get it done. We're not doing that- at minimum, I owe it to myself to carry the war through to its end (though of course I want to go further!) Because I'm not going to be in a position where I can write AH.com stories forever. One day this won't even be an option and I owe it to myself to have something to look back on. Something to justify the countless hours I spend on this site and the thousands more I spend thinking about history, real and alternate alike.
I started 1.0 in the middle of COVID with nothing better to do- I recognize now how depressed I was and just how much 1.0 did to keep me from losing my damned mind. Hence, it always stuck with me- always meant more than just some writing piece or some intellectual exercise. I did the right thing setting it down when I did, and I wasn't as ready as I thought I was to do this Redux. But I have the beginning of something great here- I know that- and
I'll confess to having forgotten most of what I had planned for TTL over the past year and change, so this will be very much from the ground up. Which means I am eager for feedback and ideas to make this richer and better than 1.0, or what I had initially planned for this Redux. My thanks to everyone who's been with me thus far, and...
2024 Place In the Sun Season: here we come.
I started 1.0 in the middle of COVID with nothing better to do- I recognize now how depressed I was and just how much 1.0 did to keep me from losing my damned mind. Hence, it always stuck with me- always meant more than just some writing piece or some intellectual exercise. I did the right thing setting it down when I did, and I wasn't as ready as I thought I was to do this Redux. But I have the beginning of something great here- I know that- and
I'll confess to having forgotten most of what I had planned for TTL over the past year and change, so this will be very much from the ground up. Which means I am eager for feedback and ideas to make this richer and better than 1.0, or what I had initially planned for this Redux. My thanks to everyone who's been with me thus far, and...
2024 Place In the Sun Season: here we come.
It is great to have you back! Your story was a huge inspiration in getting my own TL off the ground and I have re-read it countless times and I adore it, it is my favourite AH story on the entire board hands down. You blend the personal narratives with the textbook elements seamlessly and I am super excited to see where this story leads!
HOLY FUCKBALLS ITS BACK
Welcome home friend, I am very excited to see this continue. What a pleasant surprise to start my day!
Welcome home friend, I am very excited to see this continue. What a pleasant surprise to start my day!
I should adopt this exclamation the next time someone revives a dormant TL. With your permission of course
IT AWESOME DAY.
Well good to have you back.
Now I hope you don't mind bit I do have something to say. Now you already know my thoughts on thr naval contingent so fair enough. I am just happy your back. However, there is the line
"The Italian military had not been ready to go to war. Lessons which should have been learned after beating the Turks hadn't been. The meat grinder was chewing up everything"
Fair enough italy would not be ready without the foreign support in resources. However I wouldn't say the military hadn't learnt its lessen. I need to find the qoutes and sources I read but I do know that out of all the military powers even cardorna himself predicted that a conflict between the great powers would be a long and bloody affair. Which just shows you how much of a butcher italian command was if they knew and still did what they did. I would say out of everyone the military would be panicking the least. It was expected
Well good to have you back.
Now I hope you don't mind bit I do have something to say. Now you already know my thoughts on thr naval contingent so fair enough. I am just happy your back. However, there is the line
"The Italian military had not been ready to go to war. Lessons which should have been learned after beating the Turks hadn't been. The meat grinder was chewing up everything"
Fair enough italy would not be ready without the foreign support in resources. However I wouldn't say the military hadn't learnt its lessen. I need to find the qoutes and sources I read but I do know that out of all the military powers even cardorna himself predicted that a conflict between the great powers would be a long and bloody affair. Which just shows you how much of a butcher italian command was if they knew and still did what they did. I would say out of everyone the military would be panicking the least. It was expected
I FULLY confess to being rusty w/my research so whatever you can send my way is much appreciated.
Well it's not that nobody in the italian army had not learned anything from the Libyan war, is a more a mix of not enough money to act on that lesson...and the old guard having a great control of the army and be really averse to changes.
IMVHO, well yes 1916 will be a very crucial year for many nations
Italy: she had bleeded and lost thousands of men and the lack of british coal hurt, the probability that the social cohesion will survive another cold winter are very small and everyone knows it, so desperate time mean desperate measure and it's probable that Rome will say to Cadorna to shut up, eat his pride and send an expeditionary forces in Germany to help the war effort there. Once it will be feasibile by the local condition, Cadorna will begun his offensive while the most probable strategy for the navy will be launching small and quick raid and use the submarines to attack enemy vessel, it's very probable that the Corpo Aeronautico Militare aka the Air Force will be increasely used to at least perform offensive action and show that the italians are doing something (honestly i think that the italian air force will be used much more than OTL and in more aggressive way due to the desperate climate)...as a note in OTL the French used license built Caproni bombers here it will not the case, hell it's more probable that Germany and A-H will use them.
Politically, well Benny and D'Annunzio are in real financial troubles, the entente give them money to support their cause in the italian media and both badly needed more, in general the socialist will be (at least initially) less hostile towards the war due to the British action so once it's clear that the war will not end soon it's in the realm of the possibility that a true government of national unity will be formed till the end of the hostilities to muster all the capacity of the italian nation...and frankly the update had given me the idea of politician already that desperate (and Sonnino was an uberconsevative, so it will be extremely ironic for him having socialist support)
Russia: oh boy, France will be in a bad situation with a two front war but she is in very nasty dire waters, with A-H not having the italian front it mean that a lot more of resources can be used against her and there is a strong possibility that ITTL Brusilov Offensive will fail or even aborted due to the russian higher ups thinking that's too dangerous
Romania: with Italy in the war against the entente and Russia under more pressure, well it's difficult to see her DoW the CP frankly it's more probable that she join them to get Bessarabia...and not carved out by Bulgaria and A-H; so this is another con for ITTL CP.
Shell crisis: probably worse than OTL due to the greater expediture for the Entente as they fight also in Italy and North Africa, by the end of 1915 it was resolved but this new commitment can prolong her
Pretty much my thoughts. I am struggling to dig up my old military sources on Italian expectations sadly as such my statement of trust me bro at this time. Sigh I shall endeavour to find them.
IRC in general it was expected that in the worst case scenario, with Italy entering the war it will all endeded in a year and in general the italian population saving and supply lasted an year.
Frankly a breackthrough in the alpine fronts is a dream for each side due to the terrain, it's much more probable that the increased use of resources by the entente and the add of the italian expeditionary corp in North France is the straw that will broke the camel in 1916
pls don't ban me
Monthly Donor
for Bulgaria i'd like to intervene:
Ferdinand and his government are both waiting to see some "real" victory that would make them think they are choosing the winning side.
In OTL Bulgaria joined not very much after the Gallipoli campaign was becoming clearly a failure.
Also the negotiations between the 2 factions went like this:
- Entente: we'll promise to talk to Serbia and Greece about giving you Macedonia, you'll also regain the territory lost to the ottoman empire in the second Balkan war. ( for the record, both Serbia and Greece already had stated with a middle finger about giving stuff to Bulgaria).
- Central powers: "OK, listen here buddy, you want Macedonia? sure. i'll throw in also the entirety if Nish. you want back the stuff lost to greece in SBW? i'll give you all the Greek Macedonia as well. BTW, if Romania dares to even breath toward the entente you'll also get also all of Dobruja. also i forgot, but as a bonus for joining there will be half a billion marks loan for military uses."
Bulgarians per sè won't be that happy to be at war with Russia while also allied with the ottomans. this feeling might be temporary quelled while being at war with Serbia as a "revenge maddafakka". the 2 most famous and popular generals historically speaking were Vladimir Vazov who, despite being outnumbered never lost a battle to the British at Doiran, and Ivan Konev.
there is a great story that my great grandma always told me before passing away. Vazov became a hero for many Bulgarian mothers as he managed to save the life of almost every soldier in a British gas attack by anticipating it and hiding everyone in underground bunkers. records say that only 5/10 soldiers died because they did not reach said bunkers on time.
there's also Stefan Toshev who led the 3rd Bulgarian army and defeated the Russo-Romanian army. he was later removed from command because he kept arguing too much with Mackensen.
Boris, the future Boris III, also participated in the war and was described as being very well trained, very mature for his age by Ludendorff. The prince befriended Mackensen.
i'll add a small detail for the Romanian boys. they had a very big army but... very, very updated. i think the cause was old generals and no actual war participation since 1878. ( technically they did participate in the SBW but did not have a single battle and still lost 20 thousand soldiers to Cholera)
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pls don't ban me
Monthly Donor
if you want, i have the guys for you. it's in Italian but you can use the subs made in English.
This one is about the events between Caporetto and Vittorio Veneto.
The guy talkin is becoming more and more famous and memable in Italy day by day because he also memes when talking about history. it's professor Barbero. his main field and passion is the Medieval age but his very good also on history in general.
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