Well doing some quick glances at some University write ups it looks like the Italian African administration is currently fighting the Senussi tribe in an uprising ongoing since 1912. A Colonel Antonio Miani was a named commander of the Government troops. This conflict would last until 1917 and the armistice that followed was negotiated with British assistance. Be interesting to see what the butterflies do to that.
REDUX: Place In The Sun: What If Italy Joined The Central Powers?
- Thread starter Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth
- Start date
Sadly for me my experience is more ordered In economical, social and political aspects of italy than military.
I actually forgot to tag the people I was talking to. There had been some scuffling in another thread because a user said they had no sympathy for Serbia, which was mistaken as a stab at the Serbian people rather than just it's government. This triggered the old trauma I mentioned, but that particular discussion ended before I could get a word in.Well, the Pasic Government- whatever its moral failings- was the internationally recognised government of Serbia at the time. The question of its legitimacy (both OTL and TTL) is interesting and contested, but it exercised control over the country. Further, surely the average WWI Serb fought for his country, right or wrong, just as men have in all circumstances, under regimes far worse than Pasic's. This is also Serbia specifically, not Yugoslavia, which didn't exist until 1918.
Agree about the perils of the ethnostate-- OTL Yugoslavia and Rwanda are probably the worst examples of this.
Sorry to hear about your childhood experiences. That can't have been fun.
Then I saw it being brought up here but not quite shut fully down quite yet, so I decided to say something. So of course I forgot that crucial thing and made you think I was talking directly to you.
Now, just in case editing it in doesn't notify them, I'm going to tag @Kylia and @Noblesse Oblige here, since this was mainly in response to their postings in both threads, though some of their comments do apply to Serbia as a Nation-state and people, not just its government.
No problem.
Misunderstandings happen, and I think we can all agree people ≠ their government's policies.
More generally: busy weekend, busy Monday, update Tuesday.
So to start off, my condolences for your childhood. Honestly it really shouldn't mean a damn coming from me, but as someone who had been bullied from childhood myself, I can and yet cannot understand what you been through, am I'm sorry.
Now, my greviances was with the Serbian government at the time, not the people. While yes, "My country, right or wrong" was the order of the day and I understand that well, I will state for the record that personally, I despise that mentality. But that was what ir was at the time, and frankly while putting oneself on the firing line for national glory was a glorious thing in 1915, I find it disturbing personally. But I suppose, I shouldn't be too bothered by the matter for the sake of the story being told. And frankly, I'd rather leave it well enough alone. I've said my piece, and I'd rather be done with it.
I don't really have an interest in continuing the conversation @Grammar Kaiser . Suffice to say I don't agree with any notion that 'state and people are one'. It's about a million times more complicated than that.
Chapter XI- East Africa
Chapter XI
East Africa
Possession of African colonies was arguably the great status symbol of prewar Europe. Britain and France combined controlled three-fourths of the continent; Belgium, Portugal, and Italy were saved from irrelevance by doing the same. Colonies varied in size, profitability, and function- Algeria was a "France away from France" with a significant white minority, Egypt a strategically placed protectorate, Namibia a desert strip valuable only for its diamonds. Yet their presence was all that was needed. In the years before the war, it had been proposed that combatants would leave enemy colonies untouched. All the European states, this thinking went, had basic mutual respect beneath their shifting alliances, and theft of colonies would strip their foes of Great Power status. That was seen as "hitting below the belt".
It was a naive plan ignored once the shooting started.
Africa played an essential role in the war. The banks of the Nile- the continent's most fertile region- produce abundant potatoes and vegetables, much of which went to feed British soldiers. Truck tyres and boot soles were made from Congolese rubber. Millions of underpaid blacks toiled in fields and mines under appalling conditions, apathetic to the war and simply trying to make ends meet. Italian entry in the war complicated matters, yet Cairo, Alexandria, Rabat, and Dakar remained major export centres. Yet Africa's principal contribution was manpower. Thousands of Africans served Britain and France far from their home countries (with millions of Indians doing likewise). They fought loyally and often impressed their white officers with their skill and determination, even if racism often left them last in line for supplies, transport, and relief. Most took pride in representing their homelands in the great struggle, identifying both with their colonising power and ethnic group back home. Just like their white counterparts, they were motivated by honour, simple patriotism, and an overwhelming desire to get back home. Entente officers who questioned, as one did, "the fighting spirit and physical hardiness of the n----- in contrast to the British race", ought to have asked their German counterparts on the Western Front. These men, who had no blacks under their command, "knew that whenever the Gurkhas or the Sengalese came over the top, we faced the hardest of fights." It is an open question whether or not the Entente could have withstood the pressures of 1915 without colonial troops, as well as to what degree they helped in 1916.
Barring a few white officers, it was the Africans themselves who fought in their home continent. Units such as the Kings African Rifles and Schutztruppe had existed in skeleton form before the war as colonial militias; they were rapidly expanded into mobile light infantry. Such men, when trained and led well, fought better than whites would have: they knew the geography, were resistant to diseases and were comfortable in the climate. However, they were prone to defection if ethnic alliances conflicted with colonial, and many deserted at the first opportunity. Why should they fight a white man's war?
Italian entry into the Central Powers opened two new theatres: the Horn of Africa and Libya. It was fortunate for the Entente that the Central Powers had been late arrivals to colonialism. Germany's colonies, though resilient, were small and scattered: the Allies could take their time in reducing them. The same held true for Italy's possessions. Eritrea and Somaliland had only been won fairly recently and, at times, could barely withstand native opposition. Libya was larger, yet sparsely inhabited beyond the coast. No attack into Egypt would come from the desert, so it posed no real threat. Yet the Entente still needed to capture these outposts, which would cost time and resources.
Britain viewed the Horn of Africa as an extension of the existing East African campaign, and tried to coordinate operations in the Horn of Africa with those in Tanganyika. India Expeditionary Force "D" (1) was formed in Nairobi in November 1915. Consisting of two veteran infantry divisions and three cavalry regiments plus a South African infantry brigade, it was designed to be light and mobile. Its South African commander, Jacob van Deventer (2), believed that Italy's position in East Africa was unstable and that if he could take the capital, everything would fall apart. Van Deventer's men crossed the border on the fourth of December, pleased to be operating in bearable winter weather instead of a scorching South African summer. Italian border guards threw up their hands after a few perfunctory shots. Meanwhile, ships of the Royal Navy's East Indies Station, led by the obsolescent battleship HMS Swiftsure, bombarded Mogadishu. They would remain in the area for the remainder of the campaign, leaving the East Indies bare yet terrifying the Italians. Meanwhile, Van Deventer continued his advance. Somali militias sniped at advance guards and supply lines, but lacked the strength for a pitched battle. The arid steppe offered few opportunities for ambushes. Van Deventer assumed- correctly- that the Italians would make a stand at Mogadishu.
His real foe was not the Italians, but the conditions. Mogadishu lay over three hundred miles from the Kenyan border, without paved roads or railways. Just as armies had since Alexander's day, van Deventer's men travelled on foot, rations on their backs and coolies carrying supplies. The pace was dreadfully slow, and even in December, heatstroke claimed lives. Salt tablets and water were more valuable than bullets. Yet there was no alternative but to press on. Pausing in the middle of the desert would deplete their supplies and leave them exposed to counterattack. Once Mogadishu fell, they'd have ample supplies and a safe place to rest. And every day they wasted was a day the Italians strengthened the city.
The Italian position was more precarious than it seemed. The north of the colony was consumed by the Dervish Rebellion- something spreading across the border to Britain and Ethiopia. Wartime pressures precluded crushing the Dervishes, yet they could wait. Keeping the vassal Sultanates within the colony loyal was more important. The Hobyo and Majerteen Sultanates had allied with the Italians in the late 1880s. In exchange for assenting to a protectorate, they retained sovereignty and received help against their rivals. Italian administrators had spent the past thirty years keeping the Sultanates in line while avoiding provocation. Keeping a show of force was always difficult and if the colonial capital fell, the Sultanates might defect. Furthermore, the Sultans might not sacrifice their own men, and enforcing the terms of the protectorate would be difficult. Nonetheless, the governor had to try. Embassies travelled to the respective capitals, informing the Sultans that the time had come. Hobyo- the further south- responded well enough. Proximity to the British gave them a greater stake in the fighting, with the Sultan comparing Mogadishu to a shield protecting his land. A thousand Hobyo warriors in antiquated Italian kit would fight at Mogadishu, their valour earning van Deventer's notice. Majerteen was more reluctant. The Dervish rebellion was happening on their soil, and they feared attack from Ethiopia. Besides, letting Britain take Italy or Hobyo down a peg was fine by them. The governor in Mogadishu was furious but there was little he could do.
While Van Deventer advanced up the desert road and Mogadishu's garrison readied themselves, diplomats clashed in Addis Ababa. Both sides coveted Ethiopia- Germany hoped its men would march on the Suez- and Italian entry into the war enhanced its importance. Ethiopia had defeated Italy twenty years prior at Adwa, and bitterness ran deep on both sides. After Italy joined the Central Powers, many proposed allying with the Entente. Eritrea and Somalia had once been Ethiopian; reclaiming even part of them would be glorious. Powerful court figures pushed for intervention, but- as with Venezelos and Constantine in Greece- the monarch pushed back. Emperor Lij Iyasu sympathised with the Central Powers, and he had a special affinity for Ottoman Turkey (giving rise to charges of secretly being a Muslim, impossible to prove or disprove). (3) Lij Iyasu's religious and political beliefs contrasted with hatred of Italy and the overwhelming material superiority of the Entente, yet he was Emperor. Britain considered mounting a coup, but feared the consequences of failure. Unpopular neutrality lasted for the rest of the war, though two Ethiopian volunteer companies eventually served under van Deventer. Lij Iyasu's infamouly corrupt rule would last until his death in 1935; his daughter Alem Tsehai Eyasu reigned as Queen Sheba until her death in 2003. (4)
The guns rumbled at Mogadishu on the fourteenth of January 1916. A month and a half was a long time to cross three hundred miles, and the mixed force was worse for wear. The defenders had not been idle, digging trenches and mounting their handful of machine-guns around the perimeter. Italian civilians were en route to neutral Mozambique under the Red Cross flag; Somali ones had been sent into the countryside. Supplies- from rations to bandages to shells- were adequate, if not plentiful. Van Deventer's first attack met with bitter resistance; light units skilled at marching through desert were ill-equipped for storming a city. He settled in for a siege, and an aeroplane sent a request for reinforcements to Nairobi. The Royal Navy blasted the defenders daily, destroying Mogadishu and killing the governor in the process, but the city held until the fourth week of February. Most of the Hobyo had long since fled, leaving only a handful of weary Italians who just wanted to die in their native country. Van Deventer settled down. Attrition had done its dirty work.
The Hobyo reacted with sheer panic. Having thrown everything against the British and failed (and remembering British brutality in previous campaigns), they decided to surrender. Surrendering of their own free will might bring clemency. Van Devender was thus perplexed to receive a "letter of unconditional capitulation" from the Hobyo sultan, and his first question was how to occupy the Sultanate with his worn-out men. The Hobyo turned over the handful of Italians once the British arrived, asking only to be left in peace. Unable to make a political settlement, Van Devender occupied the Sultanate and referred the matter to London; the Colonial Office granted Hobyo a protectorate of its own in late 1918.
Majerteen viewed all this with calm. Having forseen a British victory, their Sultan was willing to work with the new order. An emissary boarded a Royal Navy destroyer three weeks after Hobyo's surrender; he subsequently conferred with Van Deventer. If Britain would guarantee its sovereignty, protect its borders against Ethiopia and help it crush the Dervishes, Majerteen would turn on Italy and, it was hinted, be open to a protectorate. The emissary reminded Van Deventer that unlike Hobyo, Majerteen retained its army; attempting to conquer them would end poorly. Negotiations ended inconclusively, but Van Deventer did not attempt to occupy Majerteen: proof of its strength. Majerteen quickly adjusted to the new order and later received a unique honour. The final draft of the Treaty of Valencia awarded it full diplomatic recognition as a sovereign state, a formal declaration of independence having been issued on New Years Day 1916. Majerteen was the first new African state to have its equal sovereignty so recognised; for that reason pan-Africanists today hold it in high regard. (5)
The collapse of Italian Somaliland had little effect on the war's course. Its real importance would come at the peace table, as Italy tried to salvage some symbol of a nominal victory. Fighting continued on the continent, however- as Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck famously dodged the Entente until the war's last day, and as both sides wrangled in the Libyan Desert.
Africa had not wanted this war but it would know no peace.
- A, B, and C existed OTL and fought von Lettow-Vorbeck
- Jacob van Deventer, whose transfer from South Africa was accelerated by a few months ITTL
- Lij Iyasu
- Real woman- if not on Wikipedia- but I originated the regnal name.
- Without either Halie Selassie as Emperor or Italy invading in 1936, Ethiopia loses some- though not all- of that lustre.
No, it is a law of AH that the geographic expression gets $%^&*@! over
If they can get Albania and some adjustments with AH and France, they'll have done pretty decently.
pls don't ban me
Monthly Donor
from what i know, in OTL Italy did not have to keep forces in Libya to protect it because there was no menace.
now, they are facing on both sides of the colony enemies.
of course the same could be said for France and Britain since they have to send troops in africa to occupy Eritrea, Somalia and Libya.
In my opinion, since Italy is currently engaging the french, Tunisia is the more interesting Target, along a capture of Malta. They might keep a defensive position on the Egyptian border unless they organize an offensive with German help to try and breakthrough in order to reach Suez.
Speaking of Africa. what is Ethiopia doing? are they even considering the possibility to join whatever side for gains?( entente for Eritrea, CP for Djibouti and Sudan)
EDIT: i hadn't see yet the new chapter lol
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Corsica too. France's Mediterranean possessions are just flat-out better overall for Italy than a white elephant on the wrong end of the Suez.
pls don't ban me
Monthly Donor
if i remember well, in OTL Germany planned to give Italy this stuff:
- Tunisia
- Savoy and Nizza with basically all the alps and maybe even Menton and stuff
- Corsica
- Malta
- Albanian protectorate
- British Somalia and Djibouti
That'd be the case in a total Central Powers victory, which may not be the case ITTL. I think it's more likely that the Central Powers win but with the Entente not being totally humiliated.
pls don't ban me
Monthly Donor
what might happen is France and Russia are kicked out while Britain is not possible to invade.
result for Italy: they loose the horn but in the process they gain Tunisia and other stuff. considering how "worthless" were the Italian colonies compared to the others, Germany might even convince the Italians to not even fight to have them back in exchange for more grab from France.