REDUX: Place In The Sun: What If Italy Joined The Central Powers?

[Kylia]

I'm not even sure that level of French Revanche is actually possible. France has gotten the tar beaten out of it twice. It spent 40 years hyping itself up. It may not have the will to try a third time.

Nazi Germany was able to trick itself into thinking Britain/France/Etc lacked the will to resist them thanks to Hitler's successful blustering for several years (and France collapsing like a flan in a cupboard in six weeks) but the odds of Germany's behavior post WWI being even remotely like that of the Allies, especially if the French start being revanchist again with a Hitler Analogue are low. And France would be exceedingly unlikely to score the same sorts of gains against Germany as was vice-versa, in TTL WWII.

I think France may just be done, after this.

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

You raise good points.
"France goes Nazi" is the ultimate trope in CP victory TLs and one I intend to avoid...

Are you sure? the trope seems to be a commie France.

 

[Couperin]

By the way, I too find the Megali Idea fascinating- that's a scenario with potential for mass ethnic violence. Don't think it particularly likely in a world where Ottoman Turkey wins World War I, but we'll have to see.

I feel like the Megali idea would fester constantly after WWI, but unless German (and to a lesser, extent, British and American) money fail to prop up the Ottomans despite having a clear Berlin-to-Baghdad railroad going on, the chances of an Ottoman collapse are far lower. Unfortunately, that does not bode well for the Armenians. Hopefully, the Pontic and Greek Turkish genocides are averted by the Ottomans staying around, though.

 

[Spamavalanche]

I feel like the Megali idea would fester constantly after WWI, but unless German (and to a lesser, extent, British and American) money fail to prop up the Ottomans despite having a clear Berlin-to-Baghdad railroad going on, the chances of an Ottoman collapse are far lower. Unfortunately, that does not bode well for the Armenians. Hopefully, the Pontic and Greek Turkish genocides are averted by the Ottomans staying around, though.

The Megali idea was unfeasible to say the least, even in OTL, the places that they wanted were not even close to a Greek majority, you also have to remember that the Greek try to make Megali idea real after the end of WW1, and they fail, so I don't see much that changed from OTL especially In a TL that the CP's wins WW1

 

[Kylia]

The Armenian genocide started while the Ottomans were still in power, so... I unfortunately doubt this TL will be able to prevent it.

 

[Couperin]

The Megali idea was unfeasible to say the least, even in OTL, the places that they wanted were not even close to a Greek majority, you also have to remember that the Greek try to make Megali idea real after the end of WW1, and they fail, so I don't see much that changed from OTL especially In a TL that the CP's wins WW1

Yeah, the amount of insane ethnic cleansing and outright genocide of coastal Turks required to make such an idea happen should make us thankful that the Megali idea failed so completely. Unfortunately, unless civil war-torn Russia somehow manages to protect the Armenians, I don't see them turning out so well.

 

[Belka DNW]

I think France may just be done, after this.

France isn't going to lose all of its colonial empire, but I think, following your assumption, that they will gradually decline, still a regional power that can give Germany a headache but can't topple it alone. Keep in mind that this would take decades to happen.

On other note, are we going to see more of how the world is affected? Warlord era China would be the mother of all proxy wars for the europeans powers with the germans probably still helping the KMT ( and it could be a different KMT, maybe a socdem one), the french helping whomever takes control of Yunnan and Guangxi, the japanese with Manchuria as always (somethings never change huh?), and the british propping up someone in Guangdong.

And last but not least, please let's talk about south America.

 

[Quinkana]

The Megali idea was unfeasible to say the least, even in OTL, the places that they wanted were not even close to a Greek majority, you also have to remember that the Greek try to make Megali idea real after the end of WW1, and they fail, so I don't see much that changed from OTL especially In a TL that the CP's wins WW1

At those times western Anatolia was barely Greek majority and Symrna was majority Greek. Like bits of the Megali idea were definitely tenable.

 

[Spamavalanche]

At those times western Anatolia was barely Greek majority and Symrna was majority Greek. Like bits of the Megali idea were definitely tenable.

I agree with you, I was more talking about maps like these

 

[Quinkana]

Perhaps one of the monarchy claimants will get a third try.

Napoleon?

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

I agree with you, I was more talking about maps like these
View attachment 748717

...so, basically post-Manzikert Byzantium?

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

Who's to say a revolution has to happen in France? It could plausibly devolve into a dysfunctional republic

 

[Mr.Doctor]

Napoleon?

Him or a Third Kingdom of France under the Orleanists or Legitimists.

 

[Quinkana]

I agree with you, I was more talking about maps like these
View attachment 748717

Yeah this is too much in terms of what they have to do. Like maybe Marmara area and Bursa area and Caria for dominion of the aegeon but anything more is not going to work. So no Lydia and Attelecia the inland parts of mysia and east Pontus for a maximum megali Greece post 1500s.

Him or a Third Kingdom of France under the Orleanists or Legitimists.

It's more that ending French ambitions by a Napoleon gives a certain sense of poetry to the whole thing.

 

[Couperin]

Yeah, this is too much in terms of what they have to do. Like maybe Marmara area and Bursa area and Caria for dominion of the Aegean but anything more is not going to work. So, no Lydia and Attelecia the inland parts of Myesia and east Pontus for a maximum megali Greece post 1500s.

The problem, at least in my opinion, is that these outposts wouldn't be very defensible, and I don't believe for a second that any of the ethnic Turks in these places would accept being part of a Greek ethnostate, no matter how many carveouts are given by the government. Personally, I would find it more interesting if like a surviving Austria-Hungary or even Spain IOTL, the Ottoman Empire survives as a multiethnic state with a stable balance of power that allows Turks, Greeks, Arabs, Jews, and other ethnicities to coexist.

 

[Gabingston]

The problem, at least in my opinion, is that these outposts wouldn't be very defensible, and I don't believe for a second that any of the ethnic Turks in these places would accept being part of a Greek ethnostate, no matter how many carveouts are given by the government. Personally, I would find it more interesting if like a surviving Austria-Hungary or even Spain IOTL, the Ottoman Empire survives as a multiethnic state with a stable balance of power that allows Turks, Greeks, Arabs, Jews, and other ethnicities to coexist.

Turks and Greeks are natural enemies. Like Englishmen and Scots. Or Welshmen and Scots. Or Japanese and Scots. Or Scots and Other Scots! DAMN SCOTS, THEY RUINED SCOTLAND!

 

[Knightmare]

The problem, at least in my opinion, is that these outposts wouldn't be very defensible, and I don't believe for a second that any of the ethnic Turks in these places would accept being part of a Greek ethnostate, no matter how many carveouts are given by the government. Personally, I would find it more interesting if like a surviving Austria-Hungary or even Spain IOTL, the Ottoman Empire survives as a multiethnic state with a stable balance of power that allows Turks, Greeks, Arabs, Jews, and other ethnicities to coexist.

It also assumes any carve outs aren't rolled back, or actually get enforced.

"Oh sure you get religious freedom, but the local cops keep breaking up prayer services for suspicious activities. Nothing we can do about that."

 

[Kylia]

France isn't going to lose all of its colonial empire, but I think, following your assumption, that they will gradually decline, still a regional power that can give Germany a headache but can't topple it alone. Keep in mind that this would take decades to happen.

On other note, are we going to see more of how the world is affected? Warlord era China would be the mother of all proxy wars for the europeans powers with the germans probably still helping the KMT ( and it could be a different KMT, maybe a socdem one), the french helping whomever takes control of Yunnan and Guangxi, the japanese with Manchuria as always (somethings never change huh?), and the british propping up someone in Guangdong.

And last but not least, please let's talk about south America.

Well, yes, Germany won't be able to take all of France's empire - though I wouldn't be surprised if they take some pieces not with any intention to have them but to sell or trade them (such as Indochina. KR Germany really shouldn't have kept French Indochina, but sold it to Japan) - but they will take large chunks, and there's not much chance that France will be able to hold onto said empire as well.

Britain had a hard enough time holding onto their empire after WWI and then WWII, and they /won/. France, with so many dead and without the cash infusion of all the money they tried to rip out of Germany... I mean, they'll probably hold on to some, but I imagine Germany would have ever incentive to meddle with France's colonies too. I can see a lot of surplus weapons, as they get phased out of service, winding up in Algeria.

 

[Belka DNW]

I mean, they'll probably hold on to some, but I imagine Germany would have ever incentive to meddle with France's colonies too. I can see a lot of surplus weapons, as they get phased out of service, winding up in Algeria.

I see Germany asking for French Equatorial Africa, Madagascar and the protectorate over Morrocco making the british cry in horror at the though of german ports in the atlantic and indian oceans. If the germans feel like potentially pissing off the US they maybe even ask for french caribbean islands.

 

[Kylia]

The most Germany will do with those islands is mandate France give them up, I think. If the US doesn't get involved, maybe they force France to sell the islands to the US (or whoever else is interested) and take the money as part of reparations.