Redux-Americana

Highlander

Banned
This is an idea that I've been floating around lately. What if, during the American Revolutionary War, things go much worse for the Americans? They still end up winning in the end, but in the process they possibly lose claims to the Northwest Territories, northern New York, or maybe even the South.

Maybe with a rebuffed expansion, the US looks in on itself, instead of outward. The issue of slavery is slowly pushed out, as the views on slavery continue towards eventual emancipation. Maybe have an independent Louisiana Territory, with chunks of it taken by Canada and the British. No (or little) American migrate into what was the Empire of Mexico, so possibly no Texas Revolution (unless Louisianians, or French, move in).

Just a bunch of thoughts on my part. Any ideas?
 
Hmmm...interesting. My first though is: once the ATL War of 1812 comes around, the U.S. is screwed. With the southern colonies in British control, they would have a larger local population base to invade with, but it could also work against the British, as some people in the south still discontented with British rule could turn the war into the American Revolution Mark II.

Also, with the British doing better against the Americans, what happens to the Spanish and French? Do they get involved? Would Spain still gain Florida from Britain? How would a less successful American revolution affect the French revolution? Also (I know I'm providing more questions than answers), what would occur in Latin America? Would they launch their revolutions?
 

Highlander

Banned
Hmmm...interesting. My first though is: once the ATL War of 1812 comes around, the U.S. is screwed. With the southern colonies in British control, they would have a larger local population base to invade with, but it could also work against the British, as some people in the south still discontented with British rule could turn the war into the American Revolution Mark II.

Well, what I had thought would happen was that the South doesn't stay in British hands, but is occupied longer than OTL.

Also, with the British doing better against the Americans, what happens to the Spanish and French? Do they get involved? Would Spain still gain Florida from Britain? How would a less successful American revolution affect the French revolution? Also (I know I'm providing more questions than answers), what would occur in Latin America? Would they launch their revolutions?

In this, I think the Americans would go it alone. Without any European backing this time, it would instill even more of an isolationist feeling.

For the rest, I shall need to ponder those for a bit. :p
 
Hmmm...interesting. My first though is: once the ATL War of 1812 comes around, the U.S. is screwed.

The War of 1812 was started by the Americans who attacked Canada. With a much weaker United States, I can't see them thinking, even with Napoleon over in Europe, that they could win. Possible a war between the British and Americans would happen, but I would guess it would be the British attakcing to try and take back their colony. But they could just as well decide that it isn't worth the time or effort.
 

Jasen777

Donor
If Britain keeps the Northwest in the South, I would expect the U.S. to focus more on international sea trade (a western Netherlands Republic) and is likely to have at least a "correct" relationship with Britain. No war of 1812 or analogue thereof. Slavery likely gets abolished earlier than in Britain and without much fuss.
 
A couple of thoughts on on the Old Northwest

The Northwest Territories were won in large part by the George Rogers Clark expedition. If Clark loses at Vincennes, then the British may be able to retain the Northwest when the war ends. If the British also retain some of the Southern colonies, then they have a ready-made counterweight to American expansion (assuming that the natives, by themselves, cannot stop the tide).
 
Without the Northwest and the South there is not really any place for the U.S. to expand to.

They could try the Caribbean, but that would require them to war against a European power, which would put the U.S. in the middle of the shifting European alliance system. Other than that, not much else to do except wait for the Scramble for Africa (assuming something like that even happens with all the butterflies). Maybe the U.S. becomes the cliched minor power that colonizes the Congo (like Belgium in OTL and Aragon in DoD).
 
Without the Northwest and the South there is not really any place for the U.S. to expand to.
Would there really be a push for expansion in this TL's US? The Netherlands never seemed to expand much in the Continent after independence.
 

Jasen777

Donor
Would there really be a push for expansion in this TL's US? The Netherlands never seemed to expand much in the Continent after independence.

Not really. I was replying to Kevin in Indy who said the British had their counterweight to American expansion. ITTL they don't really need one - assuming they remain strong enough to hold onto the Northwest.

Contrary to the original post, I think this U.S. would be more outward focused. Not on gaining land in the Americas, but it trade. International trade will have more political influence, an embargo act would be unthinkable.
 
So this US is [Offically] basically everything East of the 1763 line.

I think whe would continue to expand,
Whe where marrying younger and having larger families than in Europe.
Between the French Indian & the ARW, England didn't want to spend the money to Garisson the northwest, and I don't see then any more willing after this more expensive war.
OTL between the Jay treaty in 1794, and the War of 1812, Thousands of settlers continued west from NY, by crossing the lake into Ontario.
ITTL the Movement west will start by crossing the line into the British Northwest/Ohio territories.
There will be Protests from England over things like Potomic's War, but not much real attemps to stop the migration.

By 1800 or so, I see "Americans" occuping most of the territory East of the Mississippi.
Some Kind of a "Texas" type Incident, and a Redrawing of the Borders. Wheither this redrawing involves a War first is up to the TL.

And there are all those Hessian Desertors. IIRC less than 50% of the Germans hired by England went home after the End of the ARW.
They wrote home IOTL about the great farm land, causing a flood of German Immigration.
This will happen ITTL, except with the reduced English Immigration into the US, they will have a Proportionitly greater Impact.
[I see most English going into the areas that are still British - ie Maine, Canada or Florida, but not enuff to stop the Americans. They Didn't OTL]
 
So this US is [Offically] basically everything East of the 1763 line.

I think whe would continue to expand,
Whe where marrying younger and having larger families than in Europe.
Between the French Indian & the ARW, England didn't want to spend the money to Garisson the northwest, and I don't see then any more willing after this more expensive war.
OTL between the Jay treaty in 1794, and the War of 1812, Thousands of settlers continued west from NY, by crossing the lake into Ontario.
ITTL the Movement west will start by crossing the line into the British Northwest/Ohio territories.
There will be Protests from England over things like Potomic's War, but not much real attemps to stop the migration.

By 1800 or so, I see "Americans" occuping most of the territory East of the Mississippi.
Some Kind of a "Texas" type Incident, and a Redrawing of the Borders. Wheither this redrawing involves a War first is up to the TL.

And there are all those Hessian Desertors. IIRC less than 50% of the Germans hired by England went home after the End of the ARW.
They wrote home IOTL about the great farm land, causing a flood of German Immigration.
This will happen ITTL, except with the reduced English Immigration into the US, they will have a Proportionitly greater Impact.
[I see most English going into the areas that are still British - ie Maine, Canada or Florida, but not enuff to stop the Americans. They Didn't OTL]

DuQuense

I see a couple of problems with this scenario.
a) Britain didn't particularly want to garrison the frontier but if was more willing to do it than the Americans. That was the basis of the ARW after all. Also, since it has a large empire with many interests it has forces which, barring multiple simultaneous threats, can be switched from other areas to boost the defence of the region. Not to mention it has the support of the locals. The US had enough trouble conquering the old NW area OTL. In TTL armed intervention means an open attack on Britain, not just attacking various local tribes.

b) There may be widespread settlement of British Canada as there was OTL. However those settlers took an oath of loyalty to the crown in return for land grants and overwhelmingly stayed loyal when war came in 1812. Why would their equivalents in TTL do any different?

Steve
 
There may be widespread settlement of British Canada as there was OTL.
Here whe are talking the whole Applalachia~mississippi Terrotory by many more people.
However those settlers took an oath of loyalty to the crown in return for land grants and overwhelmingly stayed loyal when war came in 1812. Why would their equivalents in TTL do any different?
Yes -- and the Settlers in Texas swore a Oath to Mexico. Depending on the Settlement numbers and pattern, I wonder how much a oath would mean.

The US had enough trouble conquering the old NW area OTL. In TTL armed intervention means an open attack on Britain, not just attacking various local tribes.
For the first several years, I can see the Infant US dis avowing the attackers and calling them Rouge Militias.
But the Ohio and East Florida/Alabama is just to good Farmland for a growing US to allow to remain in Indian Hands, even if it means another War.
 

Highlander

Banned
Very good thoughts, everyone! This is a really big help. :)

To start, I'll have to find a good PoD for this; would having Washington assassinated or die in some way make the Revolution falter?
 
Very good thoughts, everyone! This is a really big help. :)

To start, I'll have to find a good PoD for this; would having Washington assassinated or die in some way make the Revolution falter?

Something to that effect is currently being explored by jmberry's "The Two Unlucky Soldiers" in this subforum (currently on page 3). Essentially, it's a TL where Washington is killed back in the Seven Years War (or sometime around then).
 
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Highlander

Banned
Something to that effect is currently being explored by jmberry's "The Two Unlucky Soldiers" in this thread (currently on page 3). Essentially, it's a TL where Washington is killed back in the Seven Years War (or sometime around then).

Oh, well, bummer then. Guess I'll move onto another idea for a TL, then.
 

Jasen777

Donor
For what you are going for, having the George Rogers Clark expedition fail and a loyalist victory at King's Mountain (leading to a more successful southern campaign for the British) would seem to get you most of the way there.
 
When Washington sat down at the commanders desk in Trenton, Christmas morning He found a letter there, detailing the entire attack plan.
Supposily It arrived just at supper time, and the Commander put it aside to read in the Morning.

Have it arrive a few minutes earlier and ....................
 
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