Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by E. Burke, Jan 17, 2015.
Their were only 2 Bioshock games Infinite and the first one
As I stated in the thread here
I did realise my reaction was misplaced and over the top. As I also stated their I had found similarities with Atticus from TKAM and my own father (who had recently passed away when I read the book) in how they were good, repsonsible father figures that respected the intelligance of their children made me like Atticus more and as such I did apologise for my reaction in the thread (which everyone seemed to ignore, what's the point of apologising if everyone ignores you when you do that.) so I'm sorry about it.
Still does make the quistion of how much TKaM would change in Reds interesting though.
I've reached a dreaded piece of writers block for my own TL, so I will finish my "Reign of the Supermen" comics history posts tomorrow with the beginning of the Silver Age. Anything anyone wants me to talk about in the Silver Age?
Reign of the Supermen-Finale
Where I try to get over writer's block, and write stuff I probably should have put at the beginning.
The end of the Golden Age of Comic Books was slow and subtle. Slowly the old forces that made the UASR comics industry slowly died off. The first was at Syndicated Features. Founded as "Eisner and Iger Studios" by Will Eisner and Jerry Iger in 1935, it absorbed much of the pre-war comics industry, particularly National Allied Publication from leading comics innovator Major Wheeler-Nicholson, which published one of the first comic series with original content (the first technical "comic books" being Dell Publishing's The Funnies, and Eastern Color's Publishing (with Max Gaines as the main inspiring force) Funnies on Parade, both of which used reprints of comic strips). The collectivization processed allowed them to gain control of several titles. However, the Eisner-Iger team who founded the collective fell apart by the 50's. Eisner left in 1940, to focus on the writing aspect more, before getting drafted. His stint in the army was marked with the creation of comics made specifically for the army. His character, urban vigilante the Spirit, became a popular character after the war. Iger tried to continue running the studio, but slowly was marginalized, and by 1955, he retired from the collective entirely. New talent, such as Mort Weisinger and Irwin Donnenfield, took over. Weisinger took over the Superman and Batman books. They slowly slipped into absurdity and camp. At the same time, lasting elements for both mythos (For Superman, the bottled city of Kandor, Brainiac, and Supergirl; Batman, the Batmobile and Batgirl) were established at this time. However, the books remained popular, and the Syndicated was generally referred to as "Action and Detective Comics Collective" Also at AD Comics were Jack Kirby and Joe Simon, one time creators of Captain America for Timely, and the former a first employee at Eisner and Iger. They tried to start their own publishing collective, but failed to get support for it. After that, Kirby created the "Challengers of Doom" [ a mix of the Challengers of the Unknown and Doom Patrol, because I noticed a lot of similarities between the groups], a group of super-powered beings created by a mysterious Professor, to go on various strange adventures. They also created "The Fighting American", a parody superhero who fought stereotypical capitalists, and Franco-British villains, and the Fly, a serious insect based hero. However, Kirby was dissatisfied with the work, and began to look around
At the same time, at Red and Black publications, (founded by comics innovator and revolutionary sympathizer Max Gaines, with some help from Harry Donnenfield of SF), the "New Direction" began its decline. Its primary architects, Al Feldstein (who stepped down from a leadership position) and Harvey Kurtzman (who left, following disputes with Bill Gaines over ownership of MAD), were gone. Minor editor Julius Schwartz was promoted, and he had an idea that would strike lightning. He wanted to bring back the Flash, a minor hero that had faded into obscurity. This time, however, he would be a scientist named Barry Allen, who was dosed with chemicals, due to a thunder strike. This granted him the power of super speed. The issue reintroducing the Flash, written by Robert Kaningher and John Broome, and drawn by Carmine Infantino, sold out. Soon, other heroes, like the Green Lantern (also created by Broome and Gil Kane, who also created the corp) and Wonder Woman were reintroduced. Then a major event happened. Timely Comics, minor publisher known for Captain America, had struggled, thanks to the decline in Superhero popularity. They tried to jump on trends, but with little success. The final straw was the arrest of founder Martin Goodman for reactionary ties he had in the 30's. Timely Comics, now under the lead Goodman's nephew Stanley Lieber (who changed his name to Stan Lee), decided to sign on with R&B's distribution network, which essentially made Timely a branch of R&B. Stan Lee became an editor for the Timely books. Jack Kirby came back to Timely to help reintroduce its superhero. A new Captain America, a black man named Sam Wilson, was created, and became a smash hit. Later, the Challengers idea was retooled to create the Fantastic Four, which was even more successful. This propelled Stan Lee into popularity, and he was elected to led more books. It also led to the name change to Marvel, a reference to several Timely books.
I've been elected to the County Soviet
I've been elected to the County Soviet
So, any thoughts on the alternate animation scene in the 30's. We know about the alternate Disney (or Hyperion, I don't know), but what about Loony Tunes or the Fleischer Brothers. How might they change? I was thinking about it because of this:http://www.johncolemanburroughs.com/0934.html
You know, I really hope the great dictator still gets made, and that Charlie Chaplin still gets to make his speech. It's probably the most powerful moment in 20th century cinema in my opinion. Though of course, Chaplin will get to be much more open with his actual beliefs than in our timeline.
I've been thinking of Spiderman ITTL too and the alternate Harry.
I thought about bringing Spider-Man up the comics history above, but was tired, and just decided to end it, without bringing up alternate Marvel heroes. I was going to show Spidey as a urban vigilante, fighting social deviants and enemies of the New Left. Sort of a Daredevil like figure. Maybe Norman Osbourne is a corrupt scientist, whose experiments make him the Green Goblin.
So I've got a Reds! Shared worlds game started up, linked in my sig if anyone wants to have a go.
Don't worry, it's rather light on the required player participation.
I was thinking of taking my comics history updates, compile them into one update, and ask Jello if it could be canonized. Anyone have any thoughts?
Sounds like a good idea actually. Go for it.
Good enough for me. I will edit the profiles to expand on the heroes, and their adventures, as well as fix some mistakes:
Comics in the Golden Age:
Comic books became a popular industry after the revolution. Starting off as reprints of newspaper comic strips, they were cheap to produce, and purchase, so children could easily bought them using spare change at stores or restaurants. Comics, however, soon grew beyond reprints of Annie and Popeye. Original material was produced for comic strips, starting with New Fun by National Comics. Soon, more serious content was produced. Science fiction, crime, horror, sex comics were created. A growing genre was the Superhero. Having its origins in pulp literature characters (one could argue pre-revolution creation "The Shadow" was a superhero), superheroes were seen as the pinnacle of mankind, using science and technology to help mankind. And it all began with one man fighting for "Truth, Justice, and Socialism."
Superman The first appearance of Superman was pre-revolution, in a small self-published science fiction fanzine, called, appropriate enough, Science Fiction, in March, 1933. The issue prominently featured "Reign of the Superman". The story revolved around a bald telepath who uses his power for evil. The story was written by the fanzine's creator, Jerry Siegel. Joe Shuster drew the art for the story. Both were Cleveland high schoolers at time (though Shuster had initially come from Toronto). Shortly after the story's publication, however, they were briefly forced into hiding, due to the recent attacks on Jewish citizens by the White Army. Whilst in a Red Army camp with their families, they created a different Superman. Here, he was an alien child sent from a dying planet to the planet Earth. Here, he was adopted by a Kansas family, and became known as Clark Kent. Clark Kent decided to become a "hero for the unfortunate," but decided to adopt an alternate identity to a bumbling reporter. Inspired by legendary heroes Hercules and Sampson, Superman would be faster and stronger than his enemies, and impervious to bullets, a particularly personal touch by Siegel, whose father was killed by the robbers in 1933, and also a reaction to the violence around them. Siegel was inspired by Detective Dan (an early comic strip), and decided to make Superman a comic strip hero. They wrote s brief comic featuring Superman, but it was lost in the chaos of the early years of the UASR. A few years later, Siegel and Shuster created new comic strips with Superman, and tried to market their new creation in the newfound country. Most of the distributors and newspapers rejected them. They eventually found Syndicated Features Publications, who published the comic anthology Detective Comics, upon recommendation of Sheldon Mayer and Max Gaines. SF felt that Superman needed to be updated for the times. Hence, Siegel and Shuster were forced to change the concept to fit the new social mores. They decided to shoe-horn in a reference to the planet of Superman being run by a "glorious government and society run by the people," which had fallen into decadence, which was the cause of its eventual destruction. The parents Sam and Molly Kent became administrators of a Kansas collective farm, and Clark was raised as much by the farmers, as he was by the Kents, giving him a socialist education . They also decided to take inspiration from the New Soviet Man concept emerging in the USSR. Superman was the perfect socialist, a man who had full self mastery, and would have all the traits of the perfect American worker. Whilst Clark remained a reporter, (However, his work place was changed from the Daily Star to the Metropolis Star), he was a dedicated socialist, using his powers to rally the people, and complete the revolution. Siegel, not particularly devoted to the socialist cause, disliked having to change the concept this much, but ultimately, his vision shone through. Shuster decided to make Superman's costume (originally blue) Black, with a red "S" insignia in a yellow triangle. Finally, they created a new series of stories that featured Superman, with the help of several innocents, destroy a counter-revolutionary base, as well as bust a corrupt public official, defeat a wife beater, and exonorate a wrongfully convicted murderer, using some of the original comic strips, but changing the dialogue. In 1938, SF accepted the new strips to headline their now book Action Comics, and in June, the first issue of Action Comics, featuring Superman proudly standing with the many workers of America in background, was released, and became an instant hit. Soon, a Newspaper syndicated version was created, and after that, a popular radio series, making Superman a national icon.
In his early stories, Superman was a super-socialist, who defeated reactionaries and criminals, (destroying the factories of fascist sympathizers and, during World War II, helping destroy Nazis and other fascists) with the help of his fellow citizens, and helped with public works, building bridges and roads, helping save children, and other altruistic works. His powers included super-strength, x-ray and heat vision, super speed and super jumping. In his civilian identity, he deals with colorful characters like Lois Lane, Jimmy Olson, and his Star editor George Taylor. Only two prominent Supervillains emerged from this period: Lex Luthor, a rabid eugencist, whose obsession with the practice causes him to lose his hair, and the Ultra-Humanite, who resembled the original incarnation of Superman.
BatmanSoon after Superman's publication, other heroes emerged. Syndicated wanted another superhero, this time to highlight Detective Comics. Bob Kane, a young cartoonist associated with Syndicated Features, created a new character, The Bat-Man, as a Superman clone with Bat wings. However, Bill Finger, another cartoonist of the collective, decided to change the concept, substitute the wings for a cape, the domino mask for a cowl, and red for black. Finger and Kane had initially intended the character to be a very wealthy playboy who secretly takes up the mantle to fight crime, a homage to pre-revolution pulp heroes like The Shadow or Zorro, who had similar backstories. However, they quickly learned that this was not feasible in the first Cultural Revolution. They took a different approach, inspired by recent arrests from SecPubSafe, and films like 1934 "The Bat Whispers," where a man dressed as a Bat terrorizes several townspeople, and "This Side of Midnight," where a group of men and women adopt the guise of a single thief to steal money from the wealthy capitalists. The new Batman was now the guise adopted by several government agents dedicated to public safety. The first story in Detective Comics #27, September of 1939, saw one Batman operative infiltrate and destroy a Ku Klux Klan cell in Alabama. Sales for Detective Comics skyrocketed.
Batman uses various gadgets and impeccable detective skills to fight an array of villains. The identity is held by the best and brightest recruited by the government to fight villains primarily in Gotham city. The leader of the Batmen is Bruce Wayne, a borgouise born worker sympathizer, who recruited several of the brightest men. Batman had a larger array of villain, including the Joker, Catwoman, Two-Face, and the Penguin.
Syndicated Features, originally founded by Will Eisner and Jerry Iger, was the largest comics based publishing collective, primarily by absorbing much of the Pre-war comics industry. However, it wasn't the only one. Max Gaines, a salesmen who helped create one of the first comic books, created Red and Black publishing, with some help from Will Eisner and Harry Donnenfield. One of the largest was Timely Publishing collective, founded by Martin Goodman. As a magazine publisher, he had allowed several publications to openly support the military junta during the Civil War, though this information would not arise until 50's. After the revolution, he promptly recreated his old business as a collective. Jumping on the Superhero bandwagon, he created Namor the Sub-Mariner and the Human Torch. However, his biggest success was Captain America. He was created in 1939, right as the UASR was entering into the European Theater. Creator Joe Simon recalled that he was inspired by the revolutionary fevour against fascism. He drew a sketch of the "Super American," but decided that there were too many Supers, and made him "Captain America." Helping him was Jacob Kurtzberg, or Jack Kirby, who worked with Simon regularly. Kirby and Simon got Goodman's approval, and they worked on a first issue. The issue, featuring the Captain punching Hitler in the face, sold millions of issue upon its release in December, 1939.
The lead Captain America was a scrawny Brooklyn kid named Steve Rogers, who volunteered for a secret project, where he was given a special formula to enhance his human ability, making him the pinnacle of human perfection. After the success of the project, the formula's inventor, Dr. Josef Reinstein, was killed by Nazi agents. An imperfect formula is recovered, and is used on other soldiers. Rogers, and the other soldiers fight fascists under the shared identity of Captain America. Whilst they switch out, in the end, Steve Rogers, with his complete formula, leads the team. His main villain is Nazi colonel the Red Skull.
Despite the popularity of the superhero genre during the Second World War, the genre was overwhelmingly male. Whilst there were exceptions (including SF's Phantom Lady), there were largely only male heroes gracing the pages. Change would come in the most unexpected forms. William Moulton Marston was a psychologist, who had created the systolic blood pressure test, which would form an important part of the lie detector. In 1940, he extolled the educational virtues of comic books in an article. This caught the attention of Red and Black Publications head, Max Gaines, who invited him to join the Red and Black approval committee. Marston also had become popular, due to his work in sexuality. In particular, he saw that the revolution gave birth to a new form of woman. One who had strong values, and who refused to go into submission. She would go out and fight for the worker. He wanted a superhero that would symbolize this new socialist woman. Helping him were his two lovers: Elizabeth Holloway Marston, his wife, and their second lover, Olive Byrne. Their living arrangement had caught much attention, symbolizing the opening of sexuality in the 30's. Together, the three created "Suprema," the perfect socialist woman. They had used the Amazons as an inspiration for the character. The Amazons were made into a egalitarian society, with connections to Atlantis. (Plato's land had become very popular in the years after the revolution, and many works had connections to Atlantis.) They became a woman only society, which split off from Atlantis during its destruction. However, thousands of years later, the princess of the Amazons, Diana finds a young revolutionary pilot with designs for a Nazi plan to destroy America, crash landing on their island. Despite their isolation, the severity of the plan forces the Amazons to act. They send Diana out as their liason to the UASR, and fight on behalf of socialism. They also intend to become integrated into the UASR. Diana had superhuman strength and agility, and wielded a "Lasso of Truth," which was so painful, it would push the truth out of men. The story had heavy S&M themes, and explicit lesbianism in the Amazonian society. After changing the name from "Suprema" to "Wonder Woman," the character and story were approved, and debuted in All Star Comics #8, credited to William, Elizabeth and Olive. The character was a smash hit. Her massive popularity and influence was especially noticeable in the Amazon Brigades in Europe. The Wonder Woman comics were massively popular in these groups. She would team up with the Brigades against Nazi enemies. In fact, special divisions in the Woman's branch of the army would become known as the "Themiycira Squads" after Wonder Woman's homeland, and even the name "Diana," was used for an exemplary member of the Brigade. Meanwhile, Marston would entrench himself into R&B, and use the story to continue to spread his message about socialist feminism. He became a major figure for R&B's history. After Marston's death in 1947, Elizabeth Marston and Olive would continue to work at R&B. The Wonder Woman comics would come to symbolize the feminism of the era.
Diana had superhuman strength and agility, and wielded a "Lasso of Truth," which was so painful, it would push the truth out of men. Her abilities are often used on the battlefield, where she uses them on fascists.
Should I add anyone else?
The Hulk would be interesting.
Also what would Bioshock Infinite be in this universe. I feel like it could have some major jabs at the red terror, but I don't think the (spoilers) Comstock-Booker thing is going to remain.
Also Batman requires Bruce crying over his parents bodies. That is one of the defining fictional images of our epoch. It isn't Batman without that, and the questions of Bruce's sanity. Superman is the mask Clark Kent wears, Bruce Wayne is the mask Batman wears.
Here was my interpretation of the Hulk, from a while back:
The Atom: Inspired by Jeckyll and Hyde, the Atom, taking a name from a R&B hero, but radically changing the concept, was Bruce Banner, a SHIELD scientist who ends up caught in an atomic explosion, and becomes a monstrosity. He is pursued by the military, and is hated by the general populace, despite fighting various threats to them. This was an obvious commentary on the arms race, and the build-up of nuclear weapons. At one point, the FBU tries to create their own version of the Atom, who ends up destroying many of their own people.
I mostly got this conception of Batman from Jello's comments here:https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=6264094&highlight=Batman#post6264094. Honestly, I also prefer a single Batman, and his origin makes sense when you realize he was originally made as a Shadow rip-off.
I have an idea for a Rise of Nations Conquer the World mod. In it you either play as the Alliance of Free States or the Comintern.
As the AFS you fight a loosing battle to maintain your regime, it would be a tragic exercise in futility.
As the Comintern you have to make the revolution without destroying the world. It would be all about winning without killing everyone
That's not exactly good game design. I mean, the mode lets you win as the Soviet Union by making the Capitalist system collapse through virtue of just having a vastly higher tribute income despite its pretty hefty historical material disadvantages.
I do think some kind of geopolitical game would be cool, but maybe not Rise of Nations. Also this is more me spitballing than real ideas.
Separate names with a comma.