Don't insult the Hindenburg! Although the Me-163 vs the Forger would be interestingHow about a Spad XIII, or the Hindenburg ?
Red Storm Rising – WWIII in 1986 - vignettes
- Thread starter Archibald
- Start date
General Ripper
Banned
Why you use the term Aeronavale for Soviet Naval Aviation?
Also, I think that Bazalt and Granit missiles can't be used for attacks on land targets, just for attacks on ships.
Also, I think that Bazalt and Granit missiles can't be used for attacks on land targets, just for attacks on ships.
I'd not be surprised if they could, you'd probably have to do some re-working of the targetting package, perhaps have it go a set distance before turning on its radar otherwise it would probably go "HOLY SHIT LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THAT TARGET!" before ramming into a mountain at high speed. It would not be ideal but it would probably work. And with a 1 ton warhead you don't really need accuracy.
General Ripper
Banned
I don't think that's possible nor very likely. These missiles were made for sinking US carriers, iz isn't easy to convert them for land attacks, nor would Soviets do that. It's like turning HARM missiles into anti-tank missiles...
The warheads optimized for hitting naval targets will not be overly effective against an airfield. Even given you could use these missiles against land targets, you can't swap out warheads. Terminal guidance is IR or radar, which unlike a GPS/tercom system won't let you have a shot at hitting the runway, which these warheads won't crater because of warhead design and the fact that these missiles, unlike smaller SSMs, did not have a pop-up terminal dive. They will trash any buildings they hit, potentially start fires, and mess up aircraft in the open close to where they hit. There may be some holes in the runway(s), but these will be easily patched (unlike durandels which explode deep down and do huge damage). If there are hard aircraft shelters, a hit by one of these missiles will trash it.
The problem for the Soviets is that having fired off their missiles these ships are basically toothless. They have SAMs for self protection, but the Soviets don't have a digitally integrated air defense system. These ships now have to run for home with no way to counter any surface threats, although if the Soviets have basically used them as disposable launch systems...
BTW the Norwegians have capable missile armed patrol boats that make hiding in the fjords and dashing out to hit bad guys a fine art. Depending on how far off the coast the Soviets are they are at high risk from being jumped by these - and picking these boats up against the radar background of the rugged coast and fjords is not easy.
The problem for the Soviets is that having fired off their missiles these ships are basically toothless. They have SAMs for self protection, but the Soviets don't have a digitally integrated air defense system. These ships now have to run for home with no way to counter any surface threats, although if the Soviets have basically used them as disposable launch systems...
BTW the Norwegians have capable missile armed patrol boats that make hiding in the fjords and dashing out to hit bad guys a fine art. Depending on how far off the coast the Soviets are they are at high risk from being jumped by these - and picking these boats up against the radar background of the rugged coast and fjords is not easy.
Archibald
Banned
July 14, 1986
«Banzaiiiii » Harrier pilot Tony Parker shouted. He had Kiev in his crossights and opened fire with SNB rockets and its Aden guns, straffing the bridge. Kamov, Forgers and antiship missiles exploded all over the place, playing havoc with the ship. Nine more Harriers Mk.3 dived on the Soviet carrier, dropping 500 pounds bombs and adding to the inferno. The horizon was yellow: surely enough, the other pack of Harriers had found Minsk and blasted it.
Parker cynically sought planning that operation had probably been as complex as the Soviet diversion against Nimitz battlegroup in the first days of the war.
A force of 15 Victor bombers – all the V-bombers left in RAF inventory - had converged on the the two Soviet carriers at 25 000 ft to distract them, also jamming the ship SAMs, threatening them with AGM-45 Shrike missiles scavenged from Falkland-era Avro Vulcans.
The raid scared the shit out of Soviet admirals who scrambled all the Forgers in an atempt to catch the bombers. Meanwhile twenty Harriers from squadron 1 of the RAF flew out of old RN Hermès carrier parked away from Scotland coastline – the first RAF carrier in history, Parker laughed.
Flashback - July 8, 1986
Devonport dockyard
She was returning to service, once and again.
She had been laid up as a Centaur-class carrier during WWII, to be called HMS Elephant - but hasn't been launched until 1953, and put into service until 1959. Her sisterships Albion, Bulwark and Centaur met varied fates until none were left. The days of the RN carrier fleet were over.
Her career as a full blown aircraft carrier had come to an end early, the catapults being removed. Only commando's helicopters could fly from her deck... until Sea Harrier were purchased by the Royal Navy. The Sea Harriers however were tied to the Invicible class through deck cruisers.
And then the Falkland war turned things upside down.
The last true carrier in the Royal Navy, she sailed along Invincible and thoroughly kicked arse of Argentinian forces. Before the war the brand new Invincible was to be sold to the Royal Australian Navy, but the deal fell through for obvious reasons. Then Hermes was proposed to the Australians, but they refused it.
She was taken out of service by 1984 but remained in a 30-day readiness level.
On April 19, 1986 a deal was made with the Indian Navy for the sale of Hermes and the ship was taken out of storage for a one-year refit.
And then, once again a very unexpected war changed HMS Hermes fate.
With all three Invicible-class ships committed to convoy escort in the Atlantic, Hermes was pressed back into service to patrol the Norvegian Sea. Per lack of available Sea Harriers, and just like what had happened during the Falkland war, RAF squadron 1 Harrier mk.3 were dispatched to HMS Hermes.
The pack of Harriers had skimmed the waves and took the two Soviet carriers by surprise, and the rest was history. They would land at a ravaged Lossiemouth, but Harriers didn't needed long runways, didn't they? He smiled. Who said strategic bombers and aircraft carriers were useful only East of Suez ? As the flight of Harriers escaped, Parker received a warning from a Shackleton circling off the Scotland coast. Looks like not all Forgers have been scrambled against the Victors. One Harrier exploded in midair and the other faced the threat – a pair of soviet fighters. The Harriers carried no missiles, but they had guns and far better endurance than the Forgers, even more since the Soviet fighters had no carrier left to land.
First air to air combat in history between VSTOL fighters. How about that. Parker thought. He easily got into the tail of a Forger and fired its guns, blasting the jet from the sky, killing Viktor Shavrov.
And then, incredibly, the other Forger went into a straight line and lowered his undercarriage. Parker couldn't believe it: the Forger pilot was throwing the towel. He ordered the other Harriers to restrain their fire and the British VSTOL fighters surrounded the Yak and brought it to Lossiemouth, where the pilot was taken prisonier.
«Banzaiiiii » Harrier pilot Tony Parker shouted. He had Kiev in his crossights and opened fire with SNB rockets and its Aden guns, straffing the bridge. Kamov, Forgers and antiship missiles exploded all over the place, playing havoc with the ship. Nine more Harriers Mk.3 dived on the Soviet carrier, dropping 500 pounds bombs and adding to the inferno. The horizon was yellow: surely enough, the other pack of Harriers had found Minsk and blasted it.
Parker cynically sought planning that operation had probably been as complex as the Soviet diversion against Nimitz battlegroup in the first days of the war.
A force of 15 Victor bombers – all the V-bombers left in RAF inventory - had converged on the the two Soviet carriers at 25 000 ft to distract them, also jamming the ship SAMs, threatening them with AGM-45 Shrike missiles scavenged from Falkland-era Avro Vulcans.
The raid scared the shit out of Soviet admirals who scrambled all the Forgers in an atempt to catch the bombers. Meanwhile twenty Harriers from squadron 1 of the RAF flew out of old RN Hermès carrier parked away from Scotland coastline – the first RAF carrier in history, Parker laughed.
Flashback - July 8, 1986
Devonport dockyard
She was returning to service, once and again.
She had been laid up as a Centaur-class carrier during WWII, to be called HMS Elephant - but hasn't been launched until 1953, and put into service until 1959. Her sisterships Albion, Bulwark and Centaur met varied fates until none were left. The days of the RN carrier fleet were over.
Her career as a full blown aircraft carrier had come to an end early, the catapults being removed. Only commando's helicopters could fly from her deck... until Sea Harrier were purchased by the Royal Navy. The Sea Harriers however were tied to the Invicible class through deck cruisers.
And then the Falkland war turned things upside down.
The last true carrier in the Royal Navy, she sailed along Invincible and thoroughly kicked arse of Argentinian forces. Before the war the brand new Invincible was to be sold to the Royal Australian Navy, but the deal fell through for obvious reasons. Then Hermes was proposed to the Australians, but they refused it.
She was taken out of service by 1984 but remained in a 30-day readiness level.
On April 19, 1986 a deal was made with the Indian Navy for the sale of Hermes and the ship was taken out of storage for a one-year refit.
And then, once again a very unexpected war changed HMS Hermes fate.
With all three Invicible-class ships committed to convoy escort in the Atlantic, Hermes was pressed back into service to patrol the Norvegian Sea. Per lack of available Sea Harriers, and just like what had happened during the Falkland war, RAF squadron 1 Harrier mk.3 were dispatched to HMS Hermes.
The pack of Harriers had skimmed the waves and took the two Soviet carriers by surprise, and the rest was history. They would land at a ravaged Lossiemouth, but Harriers didn't needed long runways, didn't they? He smiled. Who said strategic bombers and aircraft carriers were useful only East of Suez ? As the flight of Harriers escaped, Parker received a warning from a Shackleton circling off the Scotland coast. Looks like not all Forgers have been scrambled against the Victors. One Harrier exploded in midair and the other faced the threat – a pair of soviet fighters. The Harriers carried no missiles, but they had guns and far better endurance than the Forgers, even more since the Soviet fighters had no carrier left to land.
First air to air combat in history between VSTOL fighters. How about that. Parker thought. He easily got into the tail of a Forger and fired its guns, blasting the jet from the sky, killing Viktor Shavrov.
And then, incredibly, the other Forger went into a straight line and lowered his undercarriage. Parker couldn't believe it: the Forger pilot was throwing the towel. He ordered the other Harriers to restrain their fire and the British VSTOL fighters surrounded the Yak and brought it to Lossiemouth, where the pilot was taken prisonier.
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Wolf of Badenoch
Donor
I appreciate that this is a very belated contribution but the one lapse in Clancy's narrative in RSR in my view was his failure to consider that US/UK could have responded to the lack of air cover in the mid Atlantic by a modern version of the WWII Hurricat using Harriers. It would be quick and simple to ship 5/6 containers of fuel, spares and ordnance as deck cargo on larger merchantmen. This would certainly have prevented or at least limited the impact of the USSR naval aviation bombers from attacking conveys without their own carriers.
I think that before Atlantic Conveyor-style measures would be implemented, the Navy would try a Sea Control Ship type of operation with 20-25 Marine Harriers on amphibious assault ships. For the most part, the operations of the LantFleet phibs are undefined before the assault on Iceland.
Intercepting supersonic bombers with a subsonic fighter without the advantage of AEW? Doesn't sound very practical.
Archibald
Banned
I'm quite sure Sea Harriers could kill Tu-16 Badgers with AIM-9L. The main threat however is the supersonic Backfire force, against which the Harrier wouldn't be very useful. The Sea Harrier FRS.2 (or whatever the initials) with Blue Vixen and AMRAAM would be much better... but not ready in 1986, by a long time. I think the Sea King AEW would be in service by 1986, providing limited AEW.
The Harriers would not be going after the Backfires. The targets they would be going after would be the subsonic, prop-driven Bear reconnaissance bombers. The Backfire raids always required high-precision targeting data from either Bears or submarines, and Bears were the most reliable and accurate. Without the Bears to guide the Backfires down to convoys, the Backfire force would be all but irrelevant.
A Backfire could outrun a Harrier without breaking a sweat, a Badger probably could if they were able to dive. Hell even a Bear can hit about Mach 0.80 at full speed, if the pilot was willing to risk a dive he could possibly keep ahead of a Harrier long enough for the pilot to simply give up.
I was thinking of doing something for this but I dunno what :s
I was thinking of doing something for this but I dunno what :s