Red Storm Rising – WWIII in 1986 - vignettes
- Thread starter Archibald
- Start date
This is good stuff, but shouldn't this be in the ASB or AH books and media sub forum since it's technically fan fiction?
Very much agree. I was on the USS Jacksonville in 1986. Basically the entire Soviet Navy surface force would have been excellent targets for Mk48s. The vast majority of their subs would have made great targets as well. IMHO from my limited view on one American fast boat, the only thing that might have saved them was Walker or our extreme over confidence. We were so much better as professional submariners it was not even close.
And don't forget that Operation Dreamland in the book destroyed around 300 of the Soviet's best all weather fighters and their pilots.
James G
Gone Fishin'
The Soviet Navy's surface force was a one-shot force. If it remained non-nuclear, as in the book, then their volleys - if they could target them well - would hurt NATO naval forces but afterwards they were just targets for counterattack as they tried to get home. The Soviet military forces had a ranking for funding / staff / priority and the Soviet Navy surface fleet was dead last!
When pitted against a surface-only force, the superior range of the Soviet SSMs and their sheer mass (think Macross Missile Massacre) would have been decisive. Factor in nuclear attack subs and carrier battle groups: REDFLT, surface branch, would have been curbstomped.
The surface force of the USSR lacked a dedicated, networked, multi-targeting AAW system. Actually, the widening technology gap between NATO and WP is exemplified by exactly this. There was absolutely nothing that got within a country mile of AEGIS.
Edit: This is also why I decided to include subs, mines and a massive naval air strike in the Battle of Sealand. On D+1, with most assets still intact, there is absolutely no way the West German and Danish navies would have waded in one-dimensional. And two divisions of Russkie naval infantry embarked in landing ships is one hell of a target.
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Don't forget that the Soviets did have very comprehensive plans for multi-vector attacks. Ideally they would have had subs, ships, aircraft all attacking as one co-ordinated strike. Imagine whilst the Nimitz's was busy defending against the Backfires an Oscar came to launch depth and salvoed her SS-N-19's from another direction as to where the AS-6's were coming in from. An AEGIS ship could probably deal with the full salvo, but not whilst trying to defend against the wall of Kingfish missiles coming in as well.
BUT they also relied on very well laid out and advanced plans, if these go out of kilter then it can go very wrong very quickly. The Soviets equipment was mostly a brute force approach. Their missiles were fairly simple, powerful, fast but crude. They lacked decent LGB's and what little information about their cruise missiles like the SS-N-21 is rather limited but it does paint a system that's inferior to the Tommahawk. Soviet tanks were good but not exceptional and they had serious issues with their training due to them being so heavily centralised and being incredibly reliant on officers and SNCO's for pretty much anything in the field.
BUT they also relied on very well laid out and advanced plans, if these go out of kilter then it can go very wrong very quickly. The Soviets equipment was mostly a brute force approach. Their missiles were fairly simple, powerful, fast but crude. They lacked decent LGB's and what little information about their cruise missiles like the SS-N-21 is rather limited but it does paint a system that's inferior to the Tommahawk. Soviet tanks were good but not exceptional and they had serious issues with their training due to them being so heavily centralised and being incredibly reliant on officers and SNCO's for pretty much anything in the field.
Another weakness of the Soviet C2-system was its reliance on The Plan(tm). Individual initiative was actively discouraged for all commanders under Army level.
The strict top-down order-based structure is one reason why NATO troops had trained for decades to go for unit commanders. Such a structure is easily disrupted.
The strict top-down order-based structure is one reason why NATO troops had trained for decades to go for unit commanders. Such a structure is easily disrupted.
Archibald
Banned
Here is the first of long delayed Norvegian sea air battle vignettes.
It is kind of masochistic to try and write any sort of useful air combat involving the very crappy Yak 38 Forger (and I say as a lifelong aviation buff)
June 26, 1986
Twenty miles from Norway coast
In the initial days of the War the Soviet Union had conquered all of northern Norway – from their base of Murmansk to Bodo and Andoya. Most of Norway Atlantic coast line, however, remained in Allied hands. The Novergian forces had been badly mauled but Norway was a large country and crucially, the capital Oslo was in the most southern tip, far from the frontline, although it was bombed by air.
Viktor Shavrov was back at the controls of his (crappy) Forger. He had been grounded since 1983, then in February 1986 he had been inexplicably called back to duty. Later he had understood why: WWIII was boiling over, and the Soviet Aeronavale needed experimented pilots.
Back in December 1982 the soviet Navy had lost a Typhoon class submarine somewhere in the Atlantic. A powerful surface fleet had been sent to search the submarine but it had inexplicably sunk with all hands.
Shavrov's Forgers aboard Kiev were supposed to provide air cover to the naval expeditionary force...except they faced a thousand of American tactical fighters of all kind. After being humiliated by an E-3 sentry accompanied by F-15 Eagles, Shavrov had lost his nerves and fired missiles at a pair of Tomcats, badly damaging one and hurting the navigator in the rear seat. Needless to say, the Americans and his admiral aboard Kiev, Stralbo, had been equally furious. Shavrov had been grounded but the court martial or gulag he feared never come. When returning to USSR he had been reassured and treated – quietly – like a hero. Instead of flying again however he had been send in goodwill tours across the Soviet Union PVO units and beyond - to Iraq. There had been an excellent reason for that: the Iraqi air force also faced goddam Tomcats and their deadly Phoenix. Neither Mig-23 nor their French Mirage jets could face Tomcat on equal basis. Not even Mig-25s. The only way to kill Tomcats was through ambushes.
I thought Afghanistan was the ultimate shithole on Earth – how wrong was I. Saddam's Iraq was far worse. Fortunately he hadn't met Saddam but only one of his sons - he could hardly remember which one, was it Udai or Qusay ? - whatever, they had scared the shit out of him. Saddam's sons were notorious criminals and sociopaths. He spent two years in the war-torn Iraq, flying Mig-23 and Mig-25 and even Mirage F1s a couple of times. Then late 1985 he moved backed to the Soviet Union and returned to service aboard Minsk, in the Pacific fleet. Then in February 1986 Minsk sailed around the world and joined its sistership Kiev in Murmansk, officially for an ASW exercice.
And now Shavrov and his wingmen were flying their first combat mission in WWIII.
There ! A very unmistakable silhouette.
Their target was flying at 25 000 ft, playing hide-and-seek in the clouds.
As he got his Forger closer, Viktor Shavrov appreciated the unique shape of the British bomber. A pointy, glazed nose, with a big chin bulge; crescent wings with gapping jet engine intakes; and a gracious T-tail which dihedral curved upwards. Say what you want about the British, Shavrov thought, they do build pretty aircraft. He prefered the Avro Vulcan, but the Victor was equally impressive. By the way, there was no more Vulcans in RAF service since 1984.
The Victor was flying a reconnaissance mission along the Norvegian coast. There had been repeated flights like this over the last week, the Victors turning back ahead of northern Norway main defences – once king of the sky it was now a large, vulnerable target.
The Kiev had sailed south, launching a pair of Forgers to ambush the British aircraft from an unexpected direction. The Victor however had been alerted, probably by an AEW aircraft flying out of Lossiemouth. We should pay a visit to the Shackletons someday. The massive bomber went full power and in a shallow dive. To Shavrov and his wingmen horror, they just couldn't catch up to engage the bomber with their guns – it was flying at 600 kts, the same speed as the Forgers. And they carried no air to air missiles since their drag and weight cut into the Forger miserable payload. The pursuit lasted three minutes before the Forgers had to breakout, as they were low on fuel. Shavrov had been taught a lesson he wouldn't forget.
It is kind of masochistic to try and write any sort of useful air combat involving the very crappy Yak 38 Forger (and I say as a lifelong aviation buff)
June 26, 1986
Twenty miles from Norway coast
In the initial days of the War the Soviet Union had conquered all of northern Norway – from their base of Murmansk to Bodo and Andoya. Most of Norway Atlantic coast line, however, remained in Allied hands. The Novergian forces had been badly mauled but Norway was a large country and crucially, the capital Oslo was in the most southern tip, far from the frontline, although it was bombed by air.
Viktor Shavrov was back at the controls of his (crappy) Forger. He had been grounded since 1983, then in February 1986 he had been inexplicably called back to duty. Later he had understood why: WWIII was boiling over, and the Soviet Aeronavale needed experimented pilots.
Back in December 1982 the soviet Navy had lost a Typhoon class submarine somewhere in the Atlantic. A powerful surface fleet had been sent to search the submarine but it had inexplicably sunk with all hands.
Shavrov's Forgers aboard Kiev were supposed to provide air cover to the naval expeditionary force...except they faced a thousand of American tactical fighters of all kind. After being humiliated by an E-3 sentry accompanied by F-15 Eagles, Shavrov had lost his nerves and fired missiles at a pair of Tomcats, badly damaging one and hurting the navigator in the rear seat. Needless to say, the Americans and his admiral aboard Kiev, Stralbo, had been equally furious. Shavrov had been grounded but the court martial or gulag he feared never come. When returning to USSR he had been reassured and treated – quietly – like a hero. Instead of flying again however he had been send in goodwill tours across the Soviet Union PVO units and beyond - to Iraq. There had been an excellent reason for that: the Iraqi air force also faced goddam Tomcats and their deadly Phoenix. Neither Mig-23 nor their French Mirage jets could face Tomcat on equal basis. Not even Mig-25s. The only way to kill Tomcats was through ambushes.
I thought Afghanistan was the ultimate shithole on Earth – how wrong was I. Saddam's Iraq was far worse. Fortunately he hadn't met Saddam but only one of his sons - he could hardly remember which one, was it Udai or Qusay ? - whatever, they had scared the shit out of him. Saddam's sons were notorious criminals and sociopaths. He spent two years in the war-torn Iraq, flying Mig-23 and Mig-25 and even Mirage F1s a couple of times. Then late 1985 he moved backed to the Soviet Union and returned to service aboard Minsk, in the Pacific fleet. Then in February 1986 Minsk sailed around the world and joined its sistership Kiev in Murmansk, officially for an ASW exercice.
And now Shavrov and his wingmen were flying their first combat mission in WWIII.
There ! A very unmistakable silhouette.
Their target was flying at 25 000 ft, playing hide-and-seek in the clouds.
As he got his Forger closer, Viktor Shavrov appreciated the unique shape of the British bomber. A pointy, glazed nose, with a big chin bulge; crescent wings with gapping jet engine intakes; and a gracious T-tail which dihedral curved upwards. Say what you want about the British, Shavrov thought, they do build pretty aircraft. He prefered the Avro Vulcan, but the Victor was equally impressive. By the way, there was no more Vulcans in RAF service since 1984.
The Victor was flying a reconnaissance mission along the Norvegian coast. There had been repeated flights like this over the last week, the Victors turning back ahead of northern Norway main defences – once king of the sky it was now a large, vulnerable target.
The Kiev had sailed south, launching a pair of Forgers to ambush the British aircraft from an unexpected direction. The Victor however had been alerted, probably by an AEW aircraft flying out of Lossiemouth. We should pay a visit to the Shackletons someday. The massive bomber went full power and in a shallow dive. To Shavrov and his wingmen horror, they just couldn't catch up to engage the bomber with their guns – it was flying at 600 kts, the same speed as the Forgers. And they carried no air to air missiles since their drag and weight cut into the Forger miserable payload. The pursuit lasted three minutes before the Forgers had to breakout, as they were low on fuel. Shavrov had been taught a lesson he wouldn't forget.
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Still to this day i do not understand why Clancy had the Soviets leave Sweden completly alone both in the book and in the C64-game instead of invade Sweden to bypass the Norwegian defences. This is a intresting thread to make a TL out of the book.
Question is: How many Soviet ships did the Chicago task force kill before they reached the ice?
Archibald
Banned
Answer: a boatload (lame pun entirely assumed) Seriously, the kill ratios in favor of NATO are a little over the top (although I think Clancy did his best in RSR to give the Soviets victories and kills)
My understanding is that the Soviets wanted to sink NATO through the Maskirovka before crushing it military. Then conquest Middle-east oild fields. Non-NATO members weren't part of the plot.
My understanding is that the Soviets wanted to sink NATO through the Maskirovka before crushing it military. Then conquest Middle-east oild fields. Non-NATO members weren't part of the plot.
Are you talking about the escort mission to get Providence clear? Reading back in my copy, Chicago herself sank 3 subs (Foxtrot, Victor, and a Tango) and 3 surface ships (2 Grishas and a Krivak), and damaged but didn't kill a Victor. Boston sank 2 subs (Tango and an unidentified twin-screw sub). HMS Torbay at the end of the mission killed the Alfa.
Archibald
Banned
Part II
June 28, 1986
The Norvegian air force had retreated to the South of the country, to Orland and Sola air bases. The Kiev and Minsk sailed along the Norvegian coast to attack the bases. Shavrov's Forger was parked in alert on the Kiev flight deck. An hour earlier a pair of Kamov had lifted off to provide mid-course targeting to the missiles.
The first two weeks of the war had been frustrating. While bombers and submarines bombed the hell out of Atlantic convoys, Scotland and Norway, the Kiev and Minsk had been stuck in the Barents sea, going in circles. Things had changed when their flagship, the nuclear battleship Kirov, had been sunk by a tiny Norvegian diesel sub. With Kirov sisterships and the Moskva helicopter carriers stuck in the Black Sea, the Kiev and Minsk remained the largest surface combattants in the Atlantic. And they had moved to the offensive.
The Kiev were complex ships with four major weapon systems in a single hull. There were SAMs and Forgers for air cover; Ka-27 helicopters for ASW; and their most powerful weapon, 8 massive P-500 cruise missiles set in the bow.
The P-500 Bazalt had a 550 km range and a payload of 1,000 kg, which allowed it to carry a 350 kt nuclear or a 950 kg semi-armor-piercing high-explosive warhead. The P-500 Bazalt used active radar homing for terminal guidance, and could received mid-course correction from the Tupolev Tu-95RTs Bear D, or Kiev own Kamov helicopters.
The missiles were intended to be used in salvos; a submarine could launch eight in rapid succession, maintaining control of each through a separate datalink. In flight the group could co-ordinate their actions; one would fly to a higher altitude and use its active radar to search for targets, forwarding this data to the other missiles which remained at low altitude. The missiles were programmed so that half of a salvo would head for a carrier target, with the rest dividing between other ships. If the high-flying missile was shot down, another from the salvo would automatically pop up to take its place. All of the missiles would switch to active radar for the terminal phase of the attack
Shavrov watched in awe as the enormous missiles blasted off the Kiev bow. Minsk target was Orland, with Kiev bombing Sola. The Norvegian F-16s had been drawn away by a massive Tu-22 Blinder raid on Oslo. Shavrov mission was of post-strike reconnaissance, eventually firing his gun or rocket pods at targets of opportunity.
They were guided by a unique helicopter – the Kamov Ka-31 was the first AEW platform in Soviet Navy history. The first prototype had hastily been sent to operational testing aboard Minsk. More Kamov - Ka-27 ASW - were airborne, chasing Norvegian type 205 submarines, willing to avenge the Kirov.
The flight of four Forgers lifted off from the Kiev and pressed on to Sola, flying a hundred feet above the sea. Even fifty miles from the coast they could see large pilars of smoke. «Looks like the P-500s found their targets» Shavrov told himself.
Then all of sudden he heard a distress call. From the Kamovs, a call that was cut short. «We are under a---» he watched outside his cockpit and saw a fireball three miles to the left. He saw the Kamovs fleeing in every direction and in complete confusion.
Then he wingman called him «bandits at six o'clock.» and he glimpsed a dart-shaped aircraft turning fast. The long nose and the coke-bottle shaped tip tanks were unmistakable. Those are goddam Norvegian F-5s. Engage! He breathed in relieve. Even Forgers stood a chance against first-generation Tigers. Shavrow brought his formation between the surviving Kamov that flew away and the returning F-5s, all six of them.
What followed was a WWII-style dogfight. It happened that both F-5A and Forgers shared a commontrait: neither had radar, only optical gunsights. In the case of F-5A it was a matter of lowering the unit cost. As for the Forger, the VSTOL mode just allowed for zero payload, not even a rudimentary range-finding radar. Even Mig-19 or Mig-17 fare better than the Yak-38, Shavrov thought bitterly. He banked his Yak and dived into the tail of a F-5A. He fired an Atoll but the missile went chasing a cloud. He muttered an obscenity and fired his 23 mm gun,blasting the tail of his adversary which impacted the sea in a ball of fire – no ejection. He was lucky enough to carry a ventral gun and a pair of Atoll: after the 1982 humiliation Yakovlev had upgraded the Yak-38s to the ML standard, an interim step before the brand new Yak-41 of which a single prototype was undergoing operational testing aboard the Minsk. And then he saw a Forger impacting the sea. All of sudden the F-5s had enough and went into afterburner, something the Forger couldn't do. Another common trait of both Tiger and Forger: they lacked any valuable combat range. Shavrov shook his head and fired his last Atoll as the fleeing Norvegians but the missile felt short. The Forgers regrouped and not only one was missing, another had been damaged by cannon fire, with the pilot ejecting ten miles from the Kiev and being rescued by a Ka-27. Back at the Kiev CIC he heard that the raids had been largely successful.
June 30, 1986
Once and again chasing the AWACS. Shavrov reminded all to well his misfortunes and how he had been humiliated by the Boeing AWACS in '82. But Shackletons are no E-3s. It was the last avatar of WWII Lancaster bomber that had thoroughly incinerated Hitler Germany's. If you think our propeller-driven Tu-95 Bears are old-fashioned, just consider the fact that Shackletons have Griffon piston engines, just like Spitfires !
He was using the same tactics he had used all those years before against the Boeing – flying solo, slowly, a hundred feet above the Sea. He would pop out below the Shackleton and fire his two Atoll air to air missiles.
A small flash of light caught his eye - light reflecting on metal, low above the sea... There ! It was unmistakably a Shackleton - the massive, ungainly Lancaster twin tail was straight of WWII. What an ugly bird. There was a big bulge under the fuselage, housing the APS-20 radar, another relic of WWII. Shavrov smiled, thinking about that Dambuster movie. Never in my life did I ever dreamed to fight a Lancaster. He flew past the aircraft nose and manoeuvered to get into the slow flying aircraft tail; he would blast it with his gun.The Shackleton had slowed down so much he couldn't use his Atolls.
And then all of sudden he saw them. In his rear mirror. Massive fighters with upturned wingtips, anhedral tail, large intakes. RAF Phantoms armed with Skyflash AAMs. Maybe that Shackleton wasn't that bad after all. He had no time to react – he was hit by a Sidewinder and barely ejected before his aircraft hit the sea. Damn. He was recovered by a Kamov Ka-27 some hours later and made clear the Phantoms should be neutralized. Leurchars was to be flattened at any cost.
To anybody, its poor's man AWACS improvisation... above, Shackleton AEW (1972 - 1991). Below: a Kamov Ka-31.
June 28, 1986
The Norvegian air force had retreated to the South of the country, to Orland and Sola air bases. The Kiev and Minsk sailed along the Norvegian coast to attack the bases. Shavrov's Forger was parked in alert on the Kiev flight deck. An hour earlier a pair of Kamov had lifted off to provide mid-course targeting to the missiles.
The first two weeks of the war had been frustrating. While bombers and submarines bombed the hell out of Atlantic convoys, Scotland and Norway, the Kiev and Minsk had been stuck in the Barents sea, going in circles. Things had changed when their flagship, the nuclear battleship Kirov, had been sunk by a tiny Norvegian diesel sub. With Kirov sisterships and the Moskva helicopter carriers stuck in the Black Sea, the Kiev and Minsk remained the largest surface combattants in the Atlantic. And they had moved to the offensive.
The Kiev were complex ships with four major weapon systems in a single hull. There were SAMs and Forgers for air cover; Ka-27 helicopters for ASW; and their most powerful weapon, 8 massive P-500 cruise missiles set in the bow.
The P-500 Bazalt had a 550 km range and a payload of 1,000 kg, which allowed it to carry a 350 kt nuclear or a 950 kg semi-armor-piercing high-explosive warhead. The P-500 Bazalt used active radar homing for terminal guidance, and could received mid-course correction from the Tupolev Tu-95RTs Bear D, or Kiev own Kamov helicopters.
The missiles were intended to be used in salvos; a submarine could launch eight in rapid succession, maintaining control of each through a separate datalink. In flight the group could co-ordinate their actions; one would fly to a higher altitude and use its active radar to search for targets, forwarding this data to the other missiles which remained at low altitude. The missiles were programmed so that half of a salvo would head for a carrier target, with the rest dividing between other ships. If the high-flying missile was shot down, another from the salvo would automatically pop up to take its place. All of the missiles would switch to active radar for the terminal phase of the attack
Shavrov watched in awe as the enormous missiles blasted off the Kiev bow. Minsk target was Orland, with Kiev bombing Sola. The Norvegian F-16s had been drawn away by a massive Tu-22 Blinder raid on Oslo. Shavrov mission was of post-strike reconnaissance, eventually firing his gun or rocket pods at targets of opportunity.
They were guided by a unique helicopter – the Kamov Ka-31 was the first AEW platform in Soviet Navy history. The first prototype had hastily been sent to operational testing aboard Minsk. More Kamov - Ka-27 ASW - were airborne, chasing Norvegian type 205 submarines, willing to avenge the Kirov.
The flight of four Forgers lifted off from the Kiev and pressed on to Sola, flying a hundred feet above the sea. Even fifty miles from the coast they could see large pilars of smoke. «Looks like the P-500s found their targets» Shavrov told himself.
Then all of sudden he heard a distress call. From the Kamovs, a call that was cut short. «We are under a---» he watched outside his cockpit and saw a fireball three miles to the left. He saw the Kamovs fleeing in every direction and in complete confusion.
Then he wingman called him «bandits at six o'clock.» and he glimpsed a dart-shaped aircraft turning fast. The long nose and the coke-bottle shaped tip tanks were unmistakable. Those are goddam Norvegian F-5s. Engage! He breathed in relieve. Even Forgers stood a chance against first-generation Tigers. Shavrow brought his formation between the surviving Kamov that flew away and the returning F-5s, all six of them.
What followed was a WWII-style dogfight. It happened that both F-5A and Forgers shared a commontrait: neither had radar, only optical gunsights. In the case of F-5A it was a matter of lowering the unit cost. As for the Forger, the VSTOL mode just allowed for zero payload, not even a rudimentary range-finding radar. Even Mig-19 or Mig-17 fare better than the Yak-38, Shavrov thought bitterly. He banked his Yak and dived into the tail of a F-5A. He fired an Atoll but the missile went chasing a cloud. He muttered an obscenity and fired his 23 mm gun,blasting the tail of his adversary which impacted the sea in a ball of fire – no ejection. He was lucky enough to carry a ventral gun and a pair of Atoll: after the 1982 humiliation Yakovlev had upgraded the Yak-38s to the ML standard, an interim step before the brand new Yak-41 of which a single prototype was undergoing operational testing aboard the Minsk. And then he saw a Forger impacting the sea. All of sudden the F-5s had enough and went into afterburner, something the Forger couldn't do. Another common trait of both Tiger and Forger: they lacked any valuable combat range. Shavrov shook his head and fired his last Atoll as the fleeing Norvegians but the missile felt short. The Forgers regrouped and not only one was missing, another had been damaged by cannon fire, with the pilot ejecting ten miles from the Kiev and being rescued by a Ka-27. Back at the Kiev CIC he heard that the raids had been largely successful.
June 30, 1986
Once and again chasing the AWACS. Shavrov reminded all to well his misfortunes and how he had been humiliated by the Boeing AWACS in '82. But Shackletons are no E-3s. It was the last avatar of WWII Lancaster bomber that had thoroughly incinerated Hitler Germany's. If you think our propeller-driven Tu-95 Bears are old-fashioned, just consider the fact that Shackletons have Griffon piston engines, just like Spitfires !
He was using the same tactics he had used all those years before against the Boeing – flying solo, slowly, a hundred feet above the Sea. He would pop out below the Shackleton and fire his two Atoll air to air missiles.
A small flash of light caught his eye - light reflecting on metal, low above the sea... There ! It was unmistakably a Shackleton - the massive, ungainly Lancaster twin tail was straight of WWII. What an ugly bird. There was a big bulge under the fuselage, housing the APS-20 radar, another relic of WWII. Shavrov smiled, thinking about that Dambuster movie. Never in my life did I ever dreamed to fight a Lancaster. He flew past the aircraft nose and manoeuvered to get into the slow flying aircraft tail; he would blast it with his gun.The Shackleton had slowed down so much he couldn't use his Atolls.
And then all of sudden he saw them. In his rear mirror. Massive fighters with upturned wingtips, anhedral tail, large intakes. RAF Phantoms armed with Skyflash AAMs. Maybe that Shackleton wasn't that bad after all. He had no time to react – he was hit by a Sidewinder and barely ejected before his aircraft hit the sea. Damn. He was recovered by a Kamov Ka-27 some hours later and made clear the Phantoms should be neutralized. Leurchars was to be flattened at any cost.
To anybody, its poor's man AWACS improvisation... above, Shackleton AEW (1972 - 1991). Below: a Kamov Ka-31.
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Archibald
Banned
Part III
July 3, 1986
Here we go again. Launch the Kamov first. Fire P-500s. Then the Forgers.
The raid was ambitious. The major strike against Norway air bases had aparently convinced high ranking Soviet admirals that aircraft carriers might be useful - one ay or another. The coordinated raids on Sola and Orland had been a dress rehersal for an enven more ambitious attack against Scotland.
The Kiev and Kirov sailed around the northern tip of Norway and fired their heavy cruise missiles toward Lossiemouth and Leuchars major RAF bases. The surface fleet had been part of the mision only because the usual maritime strike Buccaneer squadrons had been dispatched to Germany with a new role – Laser Guided Bomb illuminators for the Jaguars and Tornados. LGBs had made their first major splash in war history, replacing the usual free fall cluster bombs that had cost the RAF too many Jaguars and Tornados. After the initial success of operation Dreamland the Soviets had strongly reinforced SAMs and guns defense above airfields, making JP-233 low flybys a suicide.
The Kiev and Kirov strike was coordinated with Aeronavale Tu-22 Binders and Juliet-class cruise missile submarines. Leuchars Phantoms were left with two equally unpleasant solutions: either they stayed on the ground and would be destroyed, or they liftoff and went chasing the fast-flying missiles with their Skyflashs. In the end both Leuchars and Lossiemouth were cratered by a rain of cruise missiles. The surviving Phantoms had to retreat to the South or they were send to Stornoway to reinforce the aircraft facing occupied Iceland.
...
A Nimrod MR.2 had flown out of Leuchars just before the bombing started. It was now orbiting off the Norvegian coast in support of operation Doolittle. A pack of Backfires had attacked an important NATO convoy in the Atlantic. The Backfire were redoutable, so it was important to get ride of them. But their Umbozero base, south of Murmansk, was a fortress of SAMs and guns and interceptors. No aircraft could go there and survive... but Tomahawk submarine-launched missiles were not aircrafts. Another issue was to locate Umbozero with striking precision. The trick had been to send a pair of Tomcats chasing the returning Backfires wih their radar shut down. Only the Tomcat could that, because it had some kind of extremely powerful camera system that could track a Backfire about 40 miles away. And unlike radar, the optical system was a model of discretion.
The Nimrod crew watched from afar as Tomcats silently chasing the Backfires all the way from northern Atlantic to Andoya and the first line of SAMs, after what the Tomcat gave up the chase, not without warning of the exact timing and location of the bomber raid.
The Nimrod relayed the message to Scotland and then returned patrolling the Norvegian sea, staying afar from the Soviet forces north of Norway. They performed a reconnaissance off the coast of Norway. Within an hour the Nimrod crew noticed a strange signal. «We have a contact flying very low and slow above the water. Let's have a look at this thing.» The Nimrod dived toward the sea at 300 hundred miles an hour. The massive aircraft pierced the cloud layer in the direction of the surface, slowing down. They circled the zone, everyone onboard searching the contact.
«Got it.» The helicopter had a boxy fuselage and was unmistakably a Soviet Kamov helicopter. There was no tail rotor, just coaxial rotors turning in opposite directions to kill torque. The Nimrod circled around the helicopter, snapping pictures that were analyzed onboard. Then the crew had a major surprise. The usual ASW bulky radome wasn't there; instead was a flat, ungainly antenna hanging below the fuselage, turning slowly. «That's an AWACS chopper, damn it. Just like our Sea Kings AEW. Here's what happen when your admirals don't want to hear about CATOBAR carriers anymore. I thought the prototype hadn't flown – the Soviet surely rushed it into service before the war. No sign of air cover ? »
«Nope, we are too far South for Soviet land-based fighters. As for the Forgers...» the copilot raised his shoulders. Even a Nimrod could face Forgers. They had a pair of AIM-9 clung under the wings, a lesson learned from the Falklands.
«Should we call Scotland and ask them to scramble a pair of Phantoms ? »
«We are too far from Phantom air cover. And I don't think this fellow will wait for an hour of two.» The Nimrod geared for attack and fired an AIM-9L Sidewinder. The Kamov tried to fled, but really had no chance. The missile impacted the engines and the chopper hit the sea in a ball of fire, sinking fast. «And now let's get away before Forgers kick our asses.» The Nimrod turned and went away, skimming the waves until it was out of reach.
July 3, 1986
Here we go again. Launch the Kamov first. Fire P-500s. Then the Forgers.
The raid was ambitious. The major strike against Norway air bases had aparently convinced high ranking Soviet admirals that aircraft carriers might be useful - one ay or another. The coordinated raids on Sola and Orland had been a dress rehersal for an enven more ambitious attack against Scotland.
The Kiev and Kirov sailed around the northern tip of Norway and fired their heavy cruise missiles toward Lossiemouth and Leuchars major RAF bases. The surface fleet had been part of the mision only because the usual maritime strike Buccaneer squadrons had been dispatched to Germany with a new role – Laser Guided Bomb illuminators for the Jaguars and Tornados. LGBs had made their first major splash in war history, replacing the usual free fall cluster bombs that had cost the RAF too many Jaguars and Tornados. After the initial success of operation Dreamland the Soviets had strongly reinforced SAMs and guns defense above airfields, making JP-233 low flybys a suicide.
The Kiev and Kirov strike was coordinated with Aeronavale Tu-22 Binders and Juliet-class cruise missile submarines. Leuchars Phantoms were left with two equally unpleasant solutions: either they stayed on the ground and would be destroyed, or they liftoff and went chasing the fast-flying missiles with their Skyflashs. In the end both Leuchars and Lossiemouth were cratered by a rain of cruise missiles. The surviving Phantoms had to retreat to the South or they were send to Stornoway to reinforce the aircraft facing occupied Iceland.
...
A Nimrod MR.2 had flown out of Leuchars just before the bombing started. It was now orbiting off the Norvegian coast in support of operation Doolittle. A pack of Backfires had attacked an important NATO convoy in the Atlantic. The Backfire were redoutable, so it was important to get ride of them. But their Umbozero base, south of Murmansk, was a fortress of SAMs and guns and interceptors. No aircraft could go there and survive... but Tomahawk submarine-launched missiles were not aircrafts. Another issue was to locate Umbozero with striking precision. The trick had been to send a pair of Tomcats chasing the returning Backfires wih their radar shut down. Only the Tomcat could that, because it had some kind of extremely powerful camera system that could track a Backfire about 40 miles away. And unlike radar, the optical system was a model of discretion.
The Nimrod crew watched from afar as Tomcats silently chasing the Backfires all the way from northern Atlantic to Andoya and the first line of SAMs, after what the Tomcat gave up the chase, not without warning of the exact timing and location of the bomber raid.
The Nimrod relayed the message to Scotland and then returned patrolling the Norvegian sea, staying afar from the Soviet forces north of Norway. They performed a reconnaissance off the coast of Norway. Within an hour the Nimrod crew noticed a strange signal. «We have a contact flying very low and slow above the water. Let's have a look at this thing.» The Nimrod dived toward the sea at 300 hundred miles an hour. The massive aircraft pierced the cloud layer in the direction of the surface, slowing down. They circled the zone, everyone onboard searching the contact.
«Got it.» The helicopter had a boxy fuselage and was unmistakably a Soviet Kamov helicopter. There was no tail rotor, just coaxial rotors turning in opposite directions to kill torque. The Nimrod circled around the helicopter, snapping pictures that were analyzed onboard. Then the crew had a major surprise. The usual ASW bulky radome wasn't there; instead was a flat, ungainly antenna hanging below the fuselage, turning slowly. «That's an AWACS chopper, damn it. Just like our Sea Kings AEW. Here's what happen when your admirals don't want to hear about CATOBAR carriers anymore. I thought the prototype hadn't flown – the Soviet surely rushed it into service before the war. No sign of air cover ? »
«Nope, we are too far South for Soviet land-based fighters. As for the Forgers...» the copilot raised his shoulders. Even a Nimrod could face Forgers. They had a pair of AIM-9 clung under the wings, a lesson learned from the Falklands.
«Should we call Scotland and ask them to scramble a pair of Phantoms ? »
«We are too far from Phantom air cover. And I don't think this fellow will wait for an hour of two.» The Nimrod geared for attack and fired an AIM-9L Sidewinder. The Kamov tried to fled, but really had no chance. The missile impacted the engines and the chopper hit the sea in a ball of fire, sinking fast. «And now let's get away before Forgers kick our asses.» The Nimrod turned and went away, skimming the waves until it was out of reach.
Nice...certainly the first MPA aircraft at least since WWII to shoot down an enemy aircraft. Being as that was the only AEW helo the Soviets had...
On another matter, once any of the surface ships (and subs of course) fire off their SSMs they are out of luck, as the only way they can rearm is to return to base. The RAF and Norwegian airbases should have had SAMs which would have some effectiveness against those missiles.
On another matter, once any of the surface ships (and subs of course) fire off their SSMs they are out of luck, as the only way they can rearm is to return to base. The RAF and Norwegian airbases should have had SAMs which would have some effectiveness against those missiles.
The UK wasn't really a big SAM user, most NATO nations were not, we relied on interceptors. The RAF's SAM's would if they were still active be Bloodhound's which were more suited to shooting down jets than missiles. And whilst the RAF had the Rapier it was also better at getting jets (when it worked) than smaller targets than missiles. NATO tended to use the HAWK missile which was okay but the West wasn't a big deployer of SAM's unlike the Soviet Union.
It seems that the NATO countries viewed SAMS more as a way of catching 'leakers' who got through the interceptors. Whilst the Soviets seem to have viewed them as a primary defence system.
A great update, I knew the Yak-38 was a dog but I didn't realise it was THAT bad.
It seems that the NATO countries viewed SAMS more as a way of catching 'leakers' who got through the interceptors. Whilst the Soviets seem to have viewed them as a primary defence system.
A great update, I knew the Yak-38 was a dog but I didn't realise it was THAT bad.
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Archibald
Banned
My source is Greg Goebel Air Vectors, which is a very honest to god, unbiased aviation buff website. Even him is saying the Forger was a lost cause.
http://www.airvectors.net/avredvt.html
http://www.airvectors.net/
http://www.airvectors.net/avredvt.html
http://www.airvectors.net/
At least it wasnt the Yak-41. Seriously the Yak-38 could've been taken out by an F-86 Sabre, not thats insulting to the Sabre, the P-51 Mustang.
