Red Spies in the White House: An Alternate Cold War

[Mitridates the Great]

He gave global capital the biggest hit since Lenin, he ensured that France and Italy would have a lot more socially liberal regimes, he aided in a more gradual, respectful, and less hastened decolonization, he weakened some of the most reactionary actors of OTL, plus East Europe will most likely not be as bad as OTL, and Spain may return to being a democracy a lot sooner than IOTL. Not to mention that he started desegregation earlier as well.

I’m not an American, so I don’t care that much about American-Japanese relations, but a Japan that is more left-wing is almost always a good thing in my book.

Also, him shooting his own people in the back is crazy to even argue. That is such a defeatist attitude, and only further legitimizes anti-semitic scare tactics. If White is showing one thing, it’s how much good a single Jew can do, and though he has made uncountable amounts of enemies, he will also cement his place into the history books as one of its unlikeliest heroes.

He paved the way for an eventual Nazi takeover in the United States as a reaction to his policies. He yielded so much to Stalin that even his own government officials were alarmed at how accommodating he was.

He imposed republicanism on Japan in a way that seems designed to discredit him forever.

He implemented the Morgenthau Plan in a way that sounds more like "I'm exactly the kind of Jew Hitler was fighting against," and refused to implement the Marshall Plan, preferring instead to leave Europe at the hands of the Stalinists. He started helping the fucking Maoists!

His way of imposing his changes by decree and without ensuring support, pulling "I am the President, do what I say" made sure to validate all the anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

The TTL world will think that White is "proof" that "Jews are dangerous" and should be "kept in check". And anyone who thinks "White did a lot of good" will be socially dead as a "traitor to America." Moreover, the fact that there are people who want to keep the "White Diktats" will be read as "proof" that all these people are communists. Although that doesn't make any sense.

And of course the "White Diktats" will be nullified immediately, and if anyone protests, well, the National Guard is there to combat communist subversion (?)

 

[FALman762]

He gave global capital the biggest hit since Lenin, he ensured that France and Italy would have a lot more socially liberal regimes, he aided in a more gradual, respectful, and less hastened decolonization, he weakened some of the most reactionary actors of OTL, plus East Europe will most likely not be as bad as OTL, and Spain may return to being a democracy a lot sooner than IOTL. Not to mention that he started desegregation earlier as well.

I’m not an American, so I don’t care that much about American-Japanese relations, but a Japan that is more left-wing is almost always a good thing in my book.

Also, him shooting his own people in the back is crazy to even argue. That is such a defeatist attitude, and only further legitimizes anti-semitic scare tactics. If White is showing one thing, it’s how much good a single Jew can do, and though he has made uncountable amounts of enemies, he will also cement his place into the history books as one of its unlikeliest heroes.

I heavily disagree with you, I think Dexter White has really made things worse for many people around the world.

 

[Gar48]

Another option for Italy is Carlo Sforza being elected President of the Italian Republic in 1948 (OTL he came close, but in the end he was beaten by Luigi Einaudi).
IRL he had a very poor relationship with leftwing politicians in Italy (he lost his presidential bid in 1948 because even the left-wing members of his own party didn't like him) and he was downright despised by Palmiro Togliatti.

ITTL Einaudi's previous support for the monarchy could result in Sforza being elected President of the Republic, worsening the political tensions inside Italy

 

[Mitridates the Great]

I also want to point out that White is not even "hitting big capital" because he is too busy giving in to all of Stalin's demands.

Not to mention the interesting view that "forcing the United States into internationalist obligations" is singled out as something that is inherently detrimental to the United States and therefore in the Soviet interest that they do so. That sounds more like what an American ultra-jingoistic nativist would say than what a communist might think.

Actually I would say that it is even worse (for the Soviets) that the United States is involved in the international community. That will then allow the eventual "Fascist States of America" to use their diplomatic weight to mold the world in their image.

 

[Aluma]

Ya everyone's fkd

 

[boredviewer1234]

On the topic of Stalin, this is going to sound odd but I imagine if his legacy ever get's revised it will be in the sense of ''early Stalin made a many mistakes but a great man so we should learn and make sure his mistakes never happen again'' type of soft denunciation after all Stalin has managed to expanded the USSR to the coast of Arabia, beat the Fascists' and appears to be on his way to control of most of Asia.

Plus there is degree of ''public support'' that will emerge for him, by that in this world after one of the worst wars in history that saw the attempted extermination of most of the USSR, the Nazi's are back at it again starting a insurgency in west Germany, Spain is doubling down and expelling it's Jews and Hitler is somewhere living in a world where seemingly every prejudiced he ever believed in is confirmed. I can see the USSR's traumatized, broken victims of the Nazi's cling to it as there protector.

Though of course the tragic irony is Stalin has caused this situation to unfold.

 

[Aluma]

Yeah, Stalin will be seen as Lenin's true heir here and the man who not only beat the nazis but also led to the soviet triumph in the Cold War
His many atrocities will have the same general excuse of "oh the purges were against fascist saboteurs, dont you see how the US turned out?" "the famine was because of kulaks collaborating with the capitalists who in turn refused to provide the USSR with it's much needed industrial equipment without her handing out her grains which were being stolen by said kulaks"
So Stalinism will probably remain a mainstream ideology outside of the turned-far-right countries

 

[Aluma]

To think about it, this timeline is pretty much the most realistic Axis/Communist victory TL without having Hitler win the war, the communists launch a military invasion of the United States or the nazis & soviets miraculously fix their economics
Pretty dark and well done

 

[Mitridates the Great]

To think about it, this timeline is pretty much the most realistic Axis/Communist victory TL without having Hitler win the war, the communists launch a military invasion of the United States or the nazis & soviets miraculously fix their economics
Pretty dark and well done

I am of the opinion that people RIDICULOUSLY overvalue the economy as a weighting factor. But it's good to avoid those other two impossible scenarios (Hitler winning and America being invaded). I mean, if economics mattered so much, no one would start wars just because they're expensive and they disrupt trade, right?

 

[Aluma]

Oh no I agree that the economics of the Reich and the Soviet Union are often overrated, but I still feel like there's this view that for them to win they have to have a great economy and thus authors try through either handwavium or sheer suffering fix the nazi-soviet economies in their scenarios when trying to make those win

 

[Catalunya]

Wouldn’t there be some kind of domestic movement against the American right at some point? I’m sure many of White’s biggest supporters will have to take the punches initially, but after a time they’ll want to fight back. I can’t see the civil rights movement or organized labor suddenly give up. Add to this that the US will probably have quite an authoritarian culture following 1948, and much of the baby boomers may rebel even stronger ITTL. I can see 1968 becoming a much bigger deal, and perhaps even the 1950s could already have some domestic left-wing armed political movements.

If I had to make a guess the 1948-1968/72 time period will see right-wing Republicans and Democrats rule, after which a less anti-communist person is elected, and things sort of normalize again, though the US will stick out as a much more right-wing country than the rest of the world.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Except of course any attempt by the Left to arm itself will be viewed with MUCH more suspicion after having a literal Soviet agent in the White House.

OTL COINTELPRO will appear soft, liberal and tolerant compared to what will be organized here. We might even expect anti-communist state governments to ally with far-right militias to "check" "crazy leftists."

As for electing a less anticommunist ruler, that will very much depend on what the USSR is doing by then. And that he manages to convince the public that he is NOT another Soviet agent trying to repeat White's move. Of course, if the USSR is invading Iran or doing something equally stupid, there is no doubt that non-anti-communist politicians will be dead in the water.

What will surely be checked is the line of presidential succession to avoid this type of electoral carambol again.

 

[Pangur]

Where does leave black amicans? Any push for equality has been tarnished

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Where does leave black amicans? Any push for equality has been tarnished

I guess the idea of Stalin and White is that black Americans double down and decide to become aggressive and rabid communists in reaction to their equality being considered communism. Which also plays very well for the USSR and very badly for the USA. (And for African Americans, who will be shunned even by people who in OTL would have supported their equality)

 

[Pangur]

I guess the idea of Stalin and White is that black Americans double down and decide to become aggressive and rabid communists in reaction to their equality being considered communism. Which also plays very well for the USSR and very badly for the USA. (And for African Americans, who will be shunned even by people who in OTL would have supported their equality)

Not impossible by any means

 

[wolf-gang]

Wouldn’t there be some kind of domestic movement against the American right at some point? I’m sure many of White’s biggest supporters will have to take the punches initially, but after a time they’ll want to fight back. I can’t see the civil rights movement or organized labor suddenly give up.

When all of whites' actions are revealed... the counter-reaction is going to be massive and unprecedented. Its going to be the 21st century before any sort of hard left counter can organize

 

[Dan]

and Hitler is somewhere living in a world where seemingly every prejudiced he ever believed in is confirmed.

I think the POD is too close to Hitler's death to change anything. The chances are that he still killed himself in the bunker as per OTL, however, with no W/Allied presence in Berlin, there's no western access to any of the Nazis that were in the bunker with him, so whatever information leaks about it is up to the Soviets. As far as the rest of the world is aware, Hitler has vanished.
If Stalin wants to raise the Bogeyman that Hitler is allegedly alive and drops hints that he is living in, for example, Hannover, (in the British Zone of Control), then that's another way to drive a wedge between the British and, well, everyone else.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Of course, in theory there could be a re-action movement to the rise of the extreme right in the United States. But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for him.

The Federal Government has proven surprisingly resistant to attempts to organize insurgencies against it, overthrow it by force, or try to build alternative structures.

Furthermore, that type of subversive organization would require massive support from the population, massive rejection against the government, or both.

Which is extremely doubtful: the population would certainly side with the government if they decide to crush "communist insurgents and terrorists who are trying to destroy our democracy as White almost did." Mass rejection of the government by the population would require the federal government to do something ridiculously stupid, be unable to hide it from the population, or both. Which is even more unlikely to happen, especially since the assumption that fascists are constitutionally morons and bound by cosmic law to shoot themselves in the foot to ease their downfall is just a Hollywood thing.

Without forgetting that history shows that the reaction of the American population to terrorist offensives has NEVER been as the theory postulates.

I am referring to the theory that if a large enough group of people start demanding something with force and violence, the government has two options:
-Accede to ALL the demands of the protesters and reach the next electoral cycle safely.
-To be overthrown by popular pressure and for the new government to agree to ALL the demands of the protesters (and some more that they came up with in the meantime).

Whereas what we saw was more like:
"Deploy your weapons and call in SWAT, we're not going to give an inch. There will be no negotiating with terrorists. God bless America and damn these traitors to hell."

 

[wolf-gang]

"Deploy your weapons and call in SWAT, we're not going to give an inch. There will be no negotiating with terrorists. God bless America and damn these traitors to hell."

Communists

The added angle in this timline is that the Soviet Union and greater Commenturn (+ china) might still be around. White has given the USSR such a lead that even Stalin cant sabotage his own nation enough to undue it. We could very well see them last into the 21 century which means there's always going to be the ENEMY, the OTHER, a void that really no one could fill like the soviets could

 

[boredviewer1234]

On the topic of how the US ends the way it does, I suspect there will be a massive backlash against any the hysteria and rightwing surge that happen across the country the country soon or maybe a decade after it happens....and it get's crushed once some more finding of white's deed, more communist spies and a massive conservatives backlash occurs with some right wing groups targeting leftist with some in the government turning a blind eye.

By that White's actions and that of his fellow conspirators will take decades at least to fully uncover, and during such a time of political turmoil such as say the civil rights movements, new communist spies as duh the USSR would have to insane to not try and keep rolling dice after this black miracle led to much viler US attitudes.

I do think it matters we'v been shown the shadow clique trying to stop White are conservatives, a bit bigoted men but at same time their experienced, professionals who are not rabid conspiracy theorists who think jews control the world, they don't think the idea of socialism is itself a gateway to communism, they would be horrified to see what America will become a pro Hitler nation ect.

The people who however will be put in after the US government is purged, after the massive red scare and other such events? The young generation who grew up in world where communism has always been a thing and rising power? Those are the ones who will the US into a holocaust denying, very little rights except the rich Anglo saxon elite hellhole.

Just as White got in as a dark miracle that is making the USSR a superpower so to will the US got a situation where the hysteria after White creates cracks which eventually led to modern state of US. Could be a small minority of right wingers and or oligarchs exploit the by and far large conservative population of the US extremely spooked by leftism and facing social turmoil to push their agendas, could be just decades of paranoia eat the state alive ect.