Red Spies in the White House: An Alternate Cold War

[boredviewer1234]

This isn't like a murder or something, this is full-level treason on the highest levels. It's not getting swept under the rug even if the GOP wanted it to

I'm actually not sure what will happen to White and the resulting consequences of him will be but I suspect it will be a more a Mexican standoff over white that determines how things in the US got so crazy.

It benefits the soviet union that White dies as much a martyr as possible and preferably in a way leaves political confusion and chaos for years if he is at risk of being discovered. That way the newly allied bits of his term (Jews, blacks hoping he can stop segregation, women, people benefitting his socialist policies) bitterly oppose changing and cause a temporary deadlock while many of White administration are ''purged'' to not leave evidence behind and also push any last minute things they can in the US and abroad.

It benefits the shadow clique to have White captured alive and ''interrogated'' to admit to many things both that way they can set the narrative and the fallout while also showing they are not lunatics but obey the US legal system.

It benefits the fringe right wing/conspiracy extremists that are a bit attached to the shadow clique but are their thing clearly convinced white is the devil and killing/removing him from power is first priority damn what happens next.

I admit I do suspect the shadow clique will ultimately at getting a good transition when white dies and as a result the Jewish conspiracy and others become state dogma while the soviet union does everything it can to throw oil on the fire both to destabilize the US and also by time for their projects.

 

[Seandineen]

What would Canada do, could there perhaps, been a greater, degree of unity to salvage US political institutions?

 

[Rufus]

There‘s no way White doesn’t get the chair in the end (unless he commits suicide). This is like the Rosenbergs x1000.

But having a former US president be executed is going to be deeply traumatizing for the US, probably on par with the execution of Louis XVI in France or Charles I in England. It‘s hard to imagine what the long-term consequences of this would be.

 

[ChadMachine999]

I admit I do suspect the shadow clique will ultimately at getting a good transition when white dies and as a result the Jewish conspiracy and others become state dogma while the soviet union does everything it can to throw oil on the fire both to destabilize the US and also by time for their projects.

The Soviets already have France, which gives them access to the Atlantic and Mediterranean seas, a powerful second in command member of the warsaw pact which would make it more effective and not have the USSR as a single point of failure. In addition the Soviets are in charge of French decolonization, which ensures that much of Africa, and especially Algeria, will be red. This gives the Warsaw Pact the ability to be much more influential in the middle east. The Cold War is already over.

 

[22000 Kevin]

The Soviets already have France, which gives them access to the Atlantic and Mediterranean seas, a powerful second in command member of the warsaw pact which would make it more effective and not have the USSR as a single point of failure. In addition the Soviets are in charge of French decolonization, which ensures that much of Africa, and especially Algeria, will be red. This gives the Warsaw Pact the ability to be much more influential in the middle east. The Cold War is already over.

Guys we also must not forget who has all the remaining Nuclear weapons left on the planet... It's easy to imagine that power would be easily abused by the Soviets after the fall of the White Administration, however the Soviets will probably hide the fact they have working nuclear weapons until the Baruch plan is dead and abandoned by everyone who signed it.

 

[boredviewer1234]

The Soviets already have France, which gives them access to the Atlantic and Mediterranean seas, a powerful second in command member of the warsaw pact which would make it more effective and not have the USSR as a single point of failure. In addition the Soviets are in charge of French decolonization, which ensures that much of Africa, and especially Algeria, will be red. This gives the Warsaw Pact the ability to be much more influential in the middle east. The Cold War is already over.

True it's not looking good but I suspect the USSR's actions in Iran will come back to haunt (plus Israel) leaves Arabian peninsula, Iraq and greater Syrian region region vunerbale and thus consider the USSR a enemy plus communism a threat to their way of life and faith.

Not saying the West will win the struggle for middle east but I would say the US try and make it as bloody as possible.

 

[Blyatnik]

Soviets will probably hide the fact they have working nuclear weapons

I must have forgot, does the US know about the USSR's detonation of Joe-1 yet? Because if they don't then they are now the most powerful state in the world if they have a reliable delivery device.

 

[22000 Kevin]

The Office of Strategic Services (OSS) as of now is completely compromised with Communist spies so even if someone attempted to leak information it would be reported straight back to the NKVD...

There would be better success with other intelligence agencies but its highly unlikely that anything concrete will leak out of the Soviet Union and its wall of puppet states and Allies.

There is no U-2 planes or spy satellites in the 1940s so no proof of the Nuclear detonation will really be found.

 

[Rufus]

How did the US IOTL find out that the USSR had detonated their first nuke? From what I understand the US detected it somehow, and Truman announced it before the Soviets themselves did in September 1949. I‘d assume that the capability to detect nuclear explosions still exists ITTL, so at some point someone should figure it out, if not the US then maybe Britain?

 

[Jonathan]

How did the US IOTL find out that the USSR had detonated their first nuke? From what I understand the US detected it somehow, and Truman announced it before the Soviets themselves did in September 1949. I‘d assume that the capability to detect nuclear explosions still exists ITTL, so at some point someone should figure it out, if not the US then maybe Britain?

Is it like the Chernobyl event, with foreign nations having detectors to catch radiation.

 

[Blyatnik]

Is it like the Chernobyl event, with foreign nations having detectors to catch radiation.

A small testing device like that in the middle of the Kazakh desert is much less conspicuous than a major radiation leak and explosion in a western part of the USSR. Also the USSR was much more connected to Europe then even with the Iron curtain up and it would be easier to see and detect from space, which wouldn't be possible in 1946.

 

[boredviewer1234]

A small testing device like that in the middle of the Kazakh desert is much less conspicuous than a major radiation leak and explosion in a western part of the USSR. Also the USSR was much more connected to Europe then even with the Iron curtain up and it would be easier to see and detect from space, which wouldn't be possible in 1946.

I admit while this timeline is very cursed I do hope thanks the USSR being far more integrated for now the USSR famine post world war 2 is averted as it killed millions of people. Just for small mercies.

 

[marathag]

A small testing device like that in the middle of the Kazakh desert is much less conspicuous than a major radiation leak and explosion in a western part of the USSR. Also the USSR was much more connected to Europe then even with the Iron curtain up and it would be easier to see and detect from space, which wouldn't be possible in 1946.

LINK
How did the Truman administration discover Moscow’s secret?

Shortly after the Soviet test, on 3 September 1949, a WB-29 ["W" for weather reconnaissance] operated by the Air Force's Weather Service undertook a routine flight from Misawa Air Force Base (Japan) to Eilson Air Force Base (Alaska) on behalf of the secretive Air Force Office of Atomic Energy-1 [AFOAT-1] [later renamed the Air Force Technical Applications Center, or AFTAC]. The plane carried special filters designed to pick up the radiological debris that an atmospheric atomic test would inevitably create. So far none of the flights in the Northern Pacific had picked up a scent, but after this flight returned to Eilson and a huge Geiger counter checked the filters, the technicians detected radioactive traces. This was the 112th alert of the Atomic Energy Detection System (the previous 111 had been caused by natural occurrences, such as earthquakes). After a complex chain of events, involving more flights to collect more air samples, consultations among U.S. government scientists, consultants, and contractors, including radiological analysis by Tracerlab and Los Alamos Laboratory, and secret consultations with the British government, the U.S. intelligence community concluded that Moscow had indeed conducted a nuclear test. On 23 September 1949, President Truman announced that "We have evidence that within recent weeks an atomic explosion occurred in the U.S.S.R." (Note 2)

What made the detection of Joe-1 possible in the first place was a series of decisions that began in 1947. In September of that year, Army Chief of Staff Dwight D. Eisenhower assigned the Army Air Force, not yet an independent service, with responsibility for establishing an Atomic Energy Detection System (AEDS) so that physical manifestations of overseas nuclear development activity could be discovered. Later that year, the Air Force created what would later become known as AFOAT-1. During and after World War II, the possibility of detecting radioactive particles and emissions (as well as seismic and acoustic indicators) became the subject of protracted research and development work, which included the collection of radioactive samples following U.S. atomic tests. During 1947-1949, a complex process of review and decision at the Defense Department led to the creation of an "Interim Surveillance Research Net" that was operating routinely by the spring of 1949. A more comprehensive surveillance system integrating radiochemical, seismic, acoustic, and other methods was not yet in place.(Note 3)
1. David Holloway, Stalin and the Bomb: The Soviet Union and Atomic Energy, 1939-1956 (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1994), 266-267.
2. For a recent description of the detection of Joe-1, see Jeffrey Richelson, Spying on the Bomb: American Nuclear Intelligence from Nazi Germany to Iran and North Korea (New York: W.W. Norton, 2007), 88-92.
3. For details, see Charles A. Ziegler and David Jacobson, Spying Without Spies: Origin of America's Secret Nuclear Intelligence Surveillance System (Praeger, 1995)

 

[boredviewer1234]

So on the topic of Finland I wonder what will happen to it, given White's pretty openly admitted he does not really consider it ''aggression'' for the USSR to intervene in it's old Russian empire borders given what happened in Persia I imagine Finland is quite shaken and willing to offer nearly everything the USSR would want out of fear of being annexed next.

However Persia is big, very big and I imagine the red army and nkvd will spend months if not years ''policing'' it and in a way Finland's closeness works against Stalin it's far to close to the population centers for people to not notice and be concerned for a war, mainly because while the red army is stronger than ever it's been a very bloody war and the people want peace, sure they don't mind short easy conquest for big gains but not say hundreds of thousands of troops to occupy Finland's rather large border with Sweden and Norway.

I can see the USSR demand a effective pushing back of the border hundreds of miles, basically make it a virtual temporary colony with economic deals, leased Islands and army bases all over it and some definitely on the border of Norway and Sweden to exert pressure, a communist party set up and some show trials for them fighting for the Germans and or recruiting ect basically a creeping annexation of Finland they, with White making sure they receive no support will take.

Of course this in hindsight will cause some problems as naturally you can imagine this will cause many, many people to flee Finland, good for the USSR removing a potentially hostile population to the new land but in Sweden and Norway will now have a new diehard minority that will oppose the USSR as much as possible, assuming they are not forced to flee further.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

This TL could be a soviet victory tbh
With the way things are going this US might end up as the same kind of clusterfuck as the post-soviet Russia while the rest of the world might embrace some variant of socialism either as a result of White's aid to the soviets or simply for self preservation with how aggressive this US will become after the revelation to put it mildly

You're assuming that Europe won't go full WMIT "Oh, we're going to align ourselves with the American colossus that is openly fascist, extremely aggressive, and represses its own population with Nazi-esque methods. Yes, without a doubt this is the best policy to follow" and will align itself with the United States.

I wonder if, despite the backlash, some of White's policies will popular enough to be retained, like Hitler's animal welfare laws

Based on what the United States has done in simmilar situations, these things will happen:

-The post-White Congress will IMMEDIATELY repeal any and all laws passed by White.
-Said Congress will immediately enact laws that are as diametrically opposed as possible to the "White Diktats" while celebrating how they are "restoring democracy and the rule of law."
-Then the Supreme Court will rule that nothing is more strictly in accordance with the Constitution than to do exactly this, ignoring the fact that they are possibly violating several constitutional amendments in the process.
-Anyone who protests will be accused of being a traitor to America and a sympathizer of White and will be condemned to a social death. (Which can turn into literal death if the KKK and neo-Nazis are especially active in the area where the critics reside.)

EDIT: About the chapter of Franco:

Okay, this is bad, it's VERY bad. OTL's Franco was bad enough on its own. That he's now going full-on Nazi only makes it worse, even if it's an organic reaction to a "the world hates us and wants to destroy us" situation. I guess I should have expected it, but he's still SO mean.

 

[Imielin]

You're assuming that Europe won't go full WMIT "Oh, we're going to align ourselves with the American colossus that is openly fascist, extremely aggressive, and represses its own population with Nazi-esque methods. Yes, without a doubt this is the best policy to follow" and will align itself with the United States.

You are assuming that American forces stationed in Europe would allow something other than that. OTL had plans to support the overthrow of democratic governments if the local populations elected communist parties to their state apparatus. ATL, even some of the local governments (Communist Party of Italy ruled in various parts of the country for decades and greatly improved standards of living) could be overthrown if they are deemed to be too close to the American bases.

Imagine ATL European allies given the treatment of the OTL South Asian allies (outright military incursions into Cambodia, burning of the South Vietnamese forests, Laotian massive bombing runs to support the unpopular government). De Gaulle would be given Cambodia treatment if he dared to withdraw from the alliance (as the support for the OTL Khmer Rogue after the fall of their regime).

 

[Mitridates the Great]

You are assuming that American forces stationed in Europe would allow something other than that. OTL had plans to support the overthrow of democratic governments if the local populations elected communist parties to their state apparatus. ATL, even some of the local governments (Communist Party of Italy ruled in various parts of the country for decades and greatly improved standards of living) could be overthrown if they are deemed to be too close to the American bases.

Imagine ATL European allies given the treatment of the OTL South Asian allies (outright military incursions into Cambodia, burning of the South Vietnamese forests, Laotian massive bombing runs to support the unpopular government). De Gaulle would be given Cambodia treatment if he dared to withdraw from the alliance (as the support for the OTL Khmer Rogue after the fall of their regime).

Overthrowed by who? The CIA doesn't exist, and the OSS is an American branch of KGB.

The American troops don't take this initiative without orders from White. Orders they couldn't obtain. So, no one will try to overthrown communist governments.

Except if the USFE (United States Forces Europe) go completely rebellious "We reject the leadership of the President, we renege on our oath of allegiance to the United States, and we will do as we please, with zero oversight and zero accountability, because there is a red in the White House." That would basically amount to telling the world "From now on we are far-right terrorists who happen to be wearing the uniform of the United States Army."

That would provoke a massive crisis in Europe, because essentially the American troops would be overthrowing governments, contravening direct orders from the President, simply because the American commander felt like doing it. Nobody will want to have even an American embassy in their country after that.

 

[Blyatnik]

That would provoke a massive crisis in Europe, because essentially the American troops would be overthrowing governments, contravening direct orders from the President, simply because the American commander felt like doing it. Nobody will want to have even an American embassy in their country after that.

It's also the second best and most beneficial ammunition the USSR has to rush in troops. The only better would be a direct attack on Soviet territory, but this involves no risk by the USSR at all. By this point, even with superiority in aircraft, the Army in Europe (without a logistics train) is seriously outnumbered and outgunned on the ground and they would be fighting the equivalent of a civil war in every European country. Unless the US increased forces in Europe, which they wouldn't do on the orders of a Communist loyal to the USSR, they would have serious problems stopping all of Europe and the Soviet bloc coming down on them like a ton of bricks.

 

[boredviewer1234]

I admit I do think the situation with the US forces spiraling out of control with the political reveal is likely.

Though I do wonder what will happen with China, this is going sound a bit apologetic but this Mao is a man who at this time at the edge of his rope and knew it. Hence why he tried to pragmatically contest the nationalists in election knowing he had no chance of winning but would keep his head and some influence in China but Shek would never do it because his power base was in the army not the people. Now suddenly out of nowhere the USSR which left them to dry repeatedly offers a golden goose in exchange I'm guessing a lot well you would be hard pressed to not take.

By that Mao is a brutal communist warlord with a lot of plans for the future but he's far less arrogant and he does not believe in his own hype yet. Plus their will be no reconciliation Stalin did by telling Mao about all the soviet spies he had place in his party that costs the USSR a lot when the split happened given their uses here.

 

[Seandineen]

Maybe some other country in Europe, serves as a bulwark of anti communism? Italy, Belgium or Greece?