Red Army reaching Denmark?

The good behavior of Soviet troops might also have political effects--any Danes opposed to NATO or particular NATO activities (like the deployment of certain nuclear weapons) could say that Soviet occupation would not be so bad, as the Soviets occupied parts of Denmark during the war and behaved like gentlemen.
 
well, I've read in accounts such as Anthony Beevor's BERLIN 1945 that, when friughtened German civilians 1st encountered Red Army soldiers who had 'liberated' their local area, the frontline troops were actually the most decent & kind-hearted, who advised these civvies to flee as far as poss since it was the rear-echelon troops who were inclined to get drunk, rape, pillage etc...

An diea for a related WI: I also read a chapter in a book on WWII airborne today that said, when the 82nd Airborne were stationed in Berlin as the US occupying force, they faced many icnidents where German elderly, women & children had been terrorised by brutal, out-of-control Red Army soldiers before they were put on trains into the western sector- the 82nd troopers were powerless to do much re these abuses until Gen Gavin gave orders that US soldiers could intervene to prevent such attacks, by 1st challenging offending Red Army soldiers, then firing warning shots- there was 1 occasion where 3 such offending Red Army soldiers were taken down by a crack Airborne marksman. WI such confrontations between the 82nd troopers & Russkis in berlin- over the latter's mistreatment of German civilians- had led to bigger confrontations or even shooting matches ?
 
Here's an article about Soviet troops misbehaving outside of Germany. I don't think it was the original one I found--the one I remember was more magaziney than academic--but this one does have similar info:

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/past_and_present/v188/188.1mark.html

I knew it. All racist propaganda about "Ruskie animals raping decent European women" is, without exception, traced to single person and his poisonous propaganda writings (I refuse to call "Berlin" a historical research, as I refuse to call Stalin propaganda "research"). Mr. Beevor managed to find a new unplowed field in overtiled farmland of Russophobia.
 
I knew it. All racist propaganda about "Ruskie animals raping decent European women" is, without exception, traced to single person and his poisonous propaganda writings (I refuse to call "Berlin" a historical research, as I refuse to call Stalin propaganda "research"). Mr. Beevor managed to find a new unplowed field in overtiled farmland of Russophobia.

Not just a river in Egypt...

It's incredible how NKVD reports fell for this propaganda 50 years before he even wrote it.:rolleyes:
 
It's incredible how NKVD reports fell for this propaganda 50 years before he even wrote it.:rolleyes:
You mean NKVD actually investigated crimes against civvies commited by Red Army servicemen and tried to deal with that? Noble sir, you're accusing Mr. Beevor of lying, as main premise of his writings is that the rape campaign had been encouraged from the very top. Or are you naive enough to believe that NKVD would investigate something approved by Stalin or his close aides? In such a case I have a very nice bridge to sell to you. Would you be interested in buying? :)
 
You mean NKVD actually investigated crimes against civvies commited by Red Army servicemen and tried to deal with that? Noble sir, you're accusing Mr. Beevor of lying, as main premise of his writings is that the rape campaign had been encouraged from the very top. Or are you naive enough to believe that NKVD would investigate something approved by Stalin or his close aides? In such a case I have a very nice bridge to sell to you. Would you be interested in buying? :)

I am thinking that they sent secret reports back to make sure that they at least had a record of what was really going on.

I don't recall Beevor claiming that the rapes were authorised. Rather he blames lack of discipline and anger.
 
I am thinking that they sent secret reports back to make sure that they at least had a record of what was really going on.
Let me give you an example. It is virtually undisputed fact that post-war (I would say post-1948, but this is hair-splitting) USSR developed very elaborate system of anti-semitic discrimination, which included strict limits on employment and education. However, you would be hard-pressed to find any documentary evidence supporting it, as those things worked through oral orders and reports.

Being raised within Soviet system, in addition to extensive reading in Russian and English I did on the subject, I would believe in Abominable Snowman and Flat Earth long before than I believe that authority-approved crime rampage generated any sort of paper trail in Soviet Union.
 
Let me give you an example. It is virtually undisputed fact that post-war (I would say post-1948, but this is hair-splitting) USSR developed very elaborate system of anti-semitic discrimination, which included strict limits on employment and education. However, you would be hard-pressed to find any documentary evidence supporting it, as those things worked through oral orders and reports.

Being raised within Soviet system, in addition to extensive reading in Russian and English I did on the subject, I would believe in Abominable Snowman and Flat Earth long before than I believe that authority-approved crime rampage generated any sort of paper trail in Soviet Union.

This in no way disputes what I said, which is that there was a loss of control which was discretely monitored and recorded. It's also not what Beevor claims - he points out that the official line had already become forgiveness and reconciliation before final defeat.
 

CalBear

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But WI Stalin manages - due a different outcome of the war - to get Denmark into the USSR's sphere of influence in an ATL Yalta? And therefore, they don't withdraw

In that case Soviet troops wouldn't have to reached the Peninsula at all, the Allies would have simply withdrawn (as happened with 3rd Army in Czechoslovakia).

As to the discipline of the Red Army:

The was NO army in the Second World War MORE disciplined than the Red Army, the NKVD saw to that. Now, NKVD troops, who were after all just more "Russians" to the civilians in the Soviet Zone of control were a very different matter. They were, by all accounts, even more brutal to the local populous than they were to Soviet citizens. The actions in most of the East were likely NKVD, who felt themselves to be above the law, or individuals in combat or follow on units (who shortly thereafter found themselves in mine clearing units).

What happened in Germany, especially East Prussia and Berlin, may not have been "ordered", but it was clearly accepted by both the military command structure and the NKVD. There is lots of hearsay evidence that NKVD officers were "encouraging" troops to visit upon the German people what had been visited upon the citizens of the Soviet Union.
 
In that case Soviet troops wouldn't have to reached the Peninsula at all, the Allies would have simply withdrawn (as happened with 3rd Army in Czechoslovakia).

As to the discipline of the Red Army:

The was NO army in the Second World War MORE disciplined than the Red Army, the NKVD saw to that. Now, NKVD troops, who were after all just more "Russians" to the civilians in the Soviet Zone of control were a very different matter. They were, by all accounts, even more brutal to the local populous than they were to Soviet citizens. The actions in most of the East were likely NKVD, who felt themselves to be above the law, or individuals in combat or follow on units (who shortly thereafter found themselves in mine clearing units).

Ah yes, the old "Do as I say, not as I do".

What happened in Germany, especially East Prussia and Berlin, may not have been "ordered", but it was clearly accepted by both the military command structure and the NKVD. There is lots of hearsay evidence that NKVD officers were "encouraging" troops to visit upon the German people what had been visited upon the citizens of the Soviet Union.

Which would fit in with what I said earlier about letting discipline slip as opposed to ordering it. I don't know why people find it surprising that morals and discipline can be abandoned so easily, especially in environments like what happened in the world at large in World War II.
 

CalBear

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...

Which would fit in with what I said earlier about letting discipline slip as opposed to ordering it. I don't know why people find it surprising that morals and discipline can be abandoned so easily, especially in environments like what happened in the world at large in World War II.

Yea, after walking all the way from Stalingrad through a devastated homeland, it wouldn't take much for some people to get revenge minded.
 
The actions in most of the East were likely NKVD, who felt themselves to be above the law, or individuals in combat or follow on units (who shortly thereafter found themselves in mine clearing units).
There's a bit of contradiction here. NKVD "enforcement"-type units weren't all that numerous (although NKVD, being the ministry of interior, did have shitload of paramilitary troops, gendarmerie etc.) However, you are likely right that rear troops (not only NKVD) were less disciplined.

What happened in Germany, especially East Prussia and Berlin, may not have been "ordered", but it was clearly accepted by both the military command structure and the NKVD.
Again, there might be a grain of truth in this statement. However, I don't believe in authorities encouraging rapefests, as this type of behaviour would lead to a loss of general control over troops pretty soon, and Soviet commanders wanted to be in control.

Another thing to consider is geographic distribution of alleged atrocities. Does it really surprise you that absolute majority of accounts come from Germany, Hungary (Hungarians were considered second only to German troops on Western front) and Poland (with long history of, let's put it mildly, problems with Russia). I could believe that Russians treated Germans or Hungarians harshly, but not Poles (Poles were considered oppressed people who suffered under Germans). So, why disproportionate number of Polish accounts? Does it have anything to do with selective memory?

And, last but not least. I don't doubt that some crimes against civilians did took place. But I find an "army of rapists" libel as offensive and lying as "Israel's genocide of Palestinians" and "Israeli Apartheid" ones, and believe that all of them are spawned by deeply entrenched racism.
 
The whole topic is pointless.

Yalta had determined what the post-war borders would be and the British, Americans and Soviets all honored those terms quite scrupulously. So unless someone can explain why Stalin suddenly wants to throw out an entire series of arrangements which he clearly approved of over a few scraps of Denmark...
 
I don't know why people find it surprising that morals and discipline can be abandoned so easily, especially in environments like what happened in the world at large in World War II.
There's a world of difference between "shit happens" type of event (and this type of shit is unavoidable, taking circumstances into account) and (citing all-important opening paragraph in The Telegraph's article linked here) "THE Red Army's orgy of rape in the dying days of Nazi Germany", which is, according to the same "impartial" source "forced him (Beevor) to revise his view of human nature".
 
Yalta had determined what the post-war borders would be and the British, Americans and Soviets all honored those terms quite scrupulously. So unless someone can explain why Stalin suddenly wants to throw out an entire series of arrangements which he clearly approved of over a few scraps of Denmark...
Yeah. IOTL Greek commies (who, by the time British arrived, controlled the whole country except downtown Athens and couple of other German garrisons) were begging Stalin to let Greece in the fold, but he refused them as it violated Yalta conditions.
 
There's a world of difference between "shit happens" type of event (and this type of shit is unavoidable, taking circumstances into account) and (citing all-important opening paragraph in The Telegraph's article linked here) "THE Red Army's orgy of rape in the dying days of Nazi Germany", which is, according to the same "impartial" source "forced him (Beevor) to revise his view of human nature".

Well obviously Beevor was delusional if it took some of the events of 1945 when the Red Army entered eastern Germany for him to "revise his view on human nature". You would have to be completely ignorant of all history before 1945 (and after 1945) to have one's views on human nature taken a down a peg or three just by that. Offhand I would have thought that slavery and the slave trade, Jewish pogroms and later the Holocaust, witch hunts in Europe and the Americas, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Lebanese civil war, Vietnam, basically the entire Pacific War (especially in China) and about three-quarters of the battles in ancient history and in religious texts would have been more than enough to make people realize that humans have a disturbing tendency to be badly behaved rather frequently.
 
The whole topic is pointless.

Yalta had determined what the post-war borders would be and the British, Americans and Soviets all honored those terms quite scrupulously. So unless someone can explain why Stalin suddenly wants to throw out an entire series of arrangements which he clearly approved of over a few scraps of Denmark...

(Hits the head against the wall)
WI a different Yalta conference determines diferent post-war borders giving the USSR control over Denmark, and extended soviet control of Germany up to the Danish border, maybe including, say Wilhelmshave?
Say Stalin belives Hitler is planning to attack the USSR in 1941, the Red Army defends better than in OTL and isn't taken by surprise, the Germans still advance but at a slower rate and by winter they are way more to the west than in OTL. Soviet and Germans offensives and counteroffensives happen along the eastern front but, overall, the Soviets are fighting more west than in OTL and reach, say, Poland, sooner, maybe even in 1944 if possible.
At the same time, Hitler doesn't declare war on the USA after Pearl and orders the Kriesgmarine to do what they can to avoid a casus belli with the USA. The Americans eventually enter the war, but they have less buildup time in Europe, the strategic bombing campaign starts later and they can't deceive the Germans as well as in OTL regarding the location of the ATL D-Day. The Germans also get somewhat luckier in the Western front, slowing a bit more the Western Allies' advances.
So, when Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill meet in an ATL Yalta (or where ever) Stalin has a better negotiation position and tries to get a North Sea port for the Soviet Navy. How likely is it, and which butterflies might it have?
 
(Hits the head against the wall)
WI a different Yalta conference determines diferent post-war borders giving the USSR control over Denmark, and extended soviet control of Germany up to the Danish border, maybe including, say Wilhelmshave?

Well it will probably mean an even larger Soviet zone than in OTL. That might have a knock-on effect in whether West Germany gets formed or not.


Say Stalin belives Hitler is planning to attack the USSR in 1941, the Red Army defends better than in OTL and isn't taken by surprise, the Germans still advance but at a slower rate and by winter they are way more to the west than in OTL. Soviet and Germans offensives and counteroffensives happen along the eastern front but, overall, the Soviets are fighting more west than in OTL and reach, say, Poland, sooner, maybe even in 1944 if possible.
At the same time, Hitler doesn't declare war on the USA after Pearl and orders the Kriesgmarine to do what they can to avoid a casus belli with the USA. The Americans eventually enter the war, but they have less buildup time in Europe, the strategic bombing campaign starts later and they can't deceive the Germans as well as in OTL regarding the location of the ATL D-Day. The Germans also get somewhat luckier in the Western front, slowing a bit more the Western Allies' advances.

Not sure how the USA doesn't enter the war in Europe until later. I was always under the impression that from at least 1940 the government in the US expected that if they got involved in World War then a two-front war with Germany and Japan would be the only outcome. Even if Hitler and Mussolini don't declare war on the US first, the fact that Japan was considerate enough to attack the US and British and Dutch possessions around the time of December 7th meant that there was a very high chance that the US would become involved in an alliance with Britain which would probably end up seeing the US at war with Germany and Italy before 1942. We might even see a shadow of World War I's US entry in that once the US is allied with Britain and starts sending supplies as an ally (possibly with escorts going all the way across the Atlantic) the chances increase that German U-boats will sink some US ship (merchant and/or military) and provide ample enough reason for the US to declare war on Germany.

So, when Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill meet in an ATL Yalta (or where ever) Stalin has a better negotiation position and tries to get a North Sea port for the Soviet Navy. How likely is it, and which butterflies might it have?

Well if he is in a better position and gets a North Sea port it won't really be for the Red Navy per se, but should the Cold War develop as in OTL (and not say sputter out after Stalin's death) then the USSR would have a port in either Denmark or Germany from which their navy could move about in the North Sea. The Soviets might still just withdraw from Denmark though (and in this case Finlandize it) as if they have Hamburg, the Kiel Canal and Wilhelmshaven there isn't much need for Denmark and with Denmark, Sweden and Finland all neutral (and guaranteed neutral favourably for the USSR in the case of Finland and Denmark) then the Baltic Sea essentially becomes a no-go area for NATO navies and would represent a nice massive navy redoubt for the Soviets. Can't see much more butterflies though. They only really need Denmark if they don't have the Hamburg-Kiel Canal-Wilhelmshaven area since then they would need control over the Danish straits to restrict access into the Baltic.
 
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