Recommend me affordable unmotorized artillery for countries under 350 000 inhabitants

Cryptic · Nov 25, 2012

Petike said:
BTW, how about portable AA systems ? Nothing fancy, no rockets, I'm only interested in simple rapidfire cannons. Cheap ones, at that.

Maybe a upgraded version of the ZSU 23-4? The cold war Soviets spent alot of time and talent developing AA systems. The ZSU 23-4 was not only relatively light (built on the chassis of a light tank), but also cheap when compared to western models and very lethal. It can also be used for ground targets.

Another possibility could be a home made vehicle involvig quadruple soviet surplus 14.5mm ultra heavy machine guns being placed in a turret and mounted on a surplus FUG vehicle. RADAR guidiance may not be possible, but the turret could be very responsive and have good thermal sight etc. The lack of a radar would also mean one less way to home in on the vehicle. If used well in mountain terrain, such a system could be very lethal to helicopters.

racevedo88 said:
However the m102 105mm having been developed post WWII and used during Vietnam conflict is lighter than the 101 with a longer range 19 vs 17.5. It is also readily available from old US stock

Did'nt the South Africans develop an ultra long range 105 mm artillery piece? Long range artillery was their specialty.

Gunnarnz · Nov 25, 2012

Petike said:
BTW, how about portable AA systems ? Nothing fancy, no rockets, I'm only interested in simple rapidfire cannons. Cheap ones, at that.

The Soviet ZPU-4 or ZU-23/2 are probably the smallest cannons that can claim any effectiveness in the AA role. Both can be towed, or mounted on practically any vehicle - trucks, armoured vehicles, boats, or whatever you have. They are also frighteningly effective against soft or lightly armoured ground targets. For something heavier you could look at the S-60 57mm cannon, but it's record doesn't seem very good and personally I don't think it's worth the effort.
If you want a cheap self-propelled system, as Cryptic suggested the ZSU-23/4 is really the only choice. With an electronics update to bring it up to date (or at least into the 1990s), it would still do perfectly well at short ranges. A modern equivalent would be the Chinese Type-95 SPAA system, but that might be a bit too high-tech and expensive compared to surplus Shilka's (which can probably be acquired for approximately nothing, if you're willing to haul them away from wherever they are).

Burton K Wheeler · Nov 25, 2012

Petike said:
BTW, how about portable AA systems ? Nothing fancy, no rockets, I'm only interested in simple rapidfire cannons. Cheap ones, at that.

Ex-US Vulcans should be fairly cheap in the 1990's as they were being phased out of service. They're available both in self-propelled (M113 chassis) and towed versions.

BigWillyG · Nov 25, 2012

What about doing what the Israelis did and replacing the .50 Brownings on WWII surplus double and quad mounts with 20mm Oerlikons or 30mm Aden cannon?

Gunnarnz · Nov 25, 2012

Burton K Wheeler said:
Ex-US Vulcans should be fairly cheap in the 1990's as they were being phased out of service. They're available both in self-propelled (M113 chassis) and towed versions.

That's true, and if for some reason Soviet kit is unacceptable then that's probably the cheapest alternative. Something like the Skyguard is probably more effective, of course, but price might be a different story (especially for the Gepard self-propelled version).
I think the lack of a search radar is big problem for the M163 & M162, though.

Petike · Nov 25, 2012

BigWillyG said:
What about doing what the Israelis did and replacing the .50 Brownings on WWII surplus double and quad mounts with 20mm Oerlikons or 30mm Aden cannon?

Sounds pretty plausible to me !

Gunnarnz said:
...and if for some reason Soviet kit is unacceptable...

Read the OP.

Gunnarnz · Nov 25, 2012

Petike said:
Read the OP.

Excuse me, I meant "Soviet-designed". The Zu-23 is made in a variety of other countries, including several European states. Check out the variants section here.

wietze · Nov 25, 2012

for mortar i would go for the french rifled 120mm mortar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortier_120mm_Rayé_Tracté_Modèle_F1

would something like the french ceasar be an option?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camion_équipé_d'un_système_d'artillerie

racevedo88 · Nov 25, 2012

Did'nt the South Africans develop an ultra long range 105 mm artillery piece? Long range artillery was their specialty.[/QUOTE]

Yes, they did almost 40 km range, however it is heavier than the 119 or 102, it uses separate loading ammo vs fixed ammo, and interrupted screw vs sliding block breach. This means that the ammo is especially design for the gun, which makes it more expensive.

sparky42 · Nov 25, 2012

What about the old warhorse of the 40mm Bofors towed guns for light gun AA?

The Dutch at least had them in service till 2000ish (since Ireland bought them in around '02), radar guided and easily towable with an easy manufacturing and support base.

Cryptic · Nov 25, 2012

Burton K Wheeler said:
Ex-US Vulcans should be fairly cheap in the 1990's as they were being phased out of service. They're available both in self-propelled (M113 chassis) and towed versions.

True, but the ZSU 23-4's performance is hard to beat. Plus, they are still in wide spread use, so spare parts and working examples are readily available. The Russians even sell upgrade kits, including MANPAD / cannon combinations.

RamscoopRaider · Nov 25, 2012

Cryptic said:
True, but the ZSU 23-4's performance is hard to beat. Plus, they are still in wide spread use, so spare parts and working examples are readily available. The Russians even sell upgrade kits, including MANPAD / cannon combinations.

However the OP says this

Petike said:
Rules of this discussion:
- by countries under 350 000 inhabitants, I mean the likes of Iceland and Luxembourg
- you cannot include Warsaw Pact artillery models, only ones of Western manufacture (i.e. North America, Europe, etc.)

He seems to be talking a cold war time period and Western countries, so the USSR won't be selling to them, and they have to think about compatibility with NATO

Andy42 · Nov 25, 2012

RamscoopRaider said:
However the OP says this

He seems to be talking a cold war time period and Western countries, so the USSR won't be selling to them, and they have to think about compatibility with NATO

If you want cheap and cheerful then this may fit the Zu-23 slot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_20_mm_Twin_Anti-Aircraft_Cannon
(Also available as a micro-mini SPAA!

: http://www.panzerbaer.de/helper/bw_lkw_00-75t_gl_kraka-a.htm)

Otherwise as Sparky suggested - get hold of of some second hand 40mm Bofors, and some radar fire control units.

Cryptic · Nov 25, 2012

RamscoopRaider said:
He seems to be talking a cold war time period and Western countries, so the USSR won't be selling to them, and they have to think about compatibility with NATO

I see, sorry. I should have read it better.

Petike · Nov 26, 2012

sparky42 said:
What about the old warhorse of the 40mm Bofors towed guns for light gun AA? The Dutch at least had them in service till 2000ish (since Ireland bought them in around '02), radar guided and easily towable with an easy manufacturing and support base.

I smell another good choice for the arsenals.

BigWillyG · Nov 26, 2012

How about the 35mm Twin Oerlikon for a medium sized AA gun? The British were impressed enough by the damage Argentine examples did during the Falklands War they took captured examples into service and only retired them in the last couple years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_35_mm_twin_cannon

Petike · Nov 26, 2012

RamscoopRaider said:
He seems to be talking a cold war time period and Western countries, so the USSR won't be selling to them, and they have to think about compatibility with NATO

The main timeframe of my LOSERS TL is between 1945 and the present. There are a few detours beyond that in the backstory (usualy showcasing relevant bits of the pre-1945 past), but the timeframe remains focused on the cold war and present day era.

BigWillyG said:
How about the 35mm Twin Oerlikon for a medium sized AA gun?

Both Bofors and Twin Oerlikons are on my shortlists.

Petike · Dec 26, 2012

Reviving this thread because I have some questions (not really about classic artillery, but related) :

What would be the best rocket launcher or similar anti-tank weapon for my fictional Liechtenstein army ?

The Germans never produced any after the end of WWII, but how about other European countries, especially those nearby ? Does Switzerland produce any ? Or should I go with French models ?

The best choice would be a cheaper reloadable model, but I won't mind a one-shot disposable one if there's no other choice.

(I am looking for a currently produced model, but you can suggest several older models by generation since 1945.)

Note that former Warsaw Pact weaponry is out of the question.

wietze · Dec 26, 2012

Petike said:
What would be the best rocket launcher or similar anti-tank weapon for my fictional Liechtenstein army ?

The Germans never produced any after the end of WWII, but how about other European countries, especially those nearby ? Does Switzerland produce any ? Or should I go with French models ?

Carl gustav is a good choice or the panzerfaust 3 or AT-4 if you want something disposable.

Germans produced both, the panzerfaust 3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerfaust_3
and the LARS 110mm rocketlauncher http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Artillery_Rocket_System

sparky42 · Dec 26, 2012

While it's not as close to your nations as France or Germany, what about the Swedish Carl Gustav, a quick look on the wiki of it says the first variant was produced in 1946 and has seen upgrades since. It's still an in service weapon system with a wide customer base so it might make sense.

Edit: Ninja'd