Recommend me affordable unmotorized artillery for countries under 350 000 inhabitants

[Gunnarnz]

Are there any good Spanish models of the kind of small artillery I'm looking for ? One of the nations borders Spain and I would like them to have some equipment of Spanish origin in addition to French and other Western European.

Also, any Italian producers of good modern mortars ?

Merci for any suggestions.

ECIA (linky) appears to have made the bulk of the Spanish army's mortars, in calibres up to 120mm. Unfortunately ECIA seems to have done rather poorly recently, so whether they're practical or not as suppliers depends on the timeframe. For actual artillery, the Spanish appear to buy British (the L118) or American (the M109), which does not augur well for their own capacity to manufacture such weapons. The Italians themselves seem to use French mortars made under licence, so they can certainly produce them but may not have any indigenous designs.

I'd suggest reversing the order of acquisitions might make more sense - Spanish mortars, with Italian artillery (the Oto Melara piece discussed previously).

 

[racevedo88]

Towed artillery

Various western types of towed artillery could be used. Since you restricted artillery to those built after WWII and my knowledge is mostly US systems, I will restrict myself to them.

M101A1 105mm is out of the competition having been built during WWII.

However the m102 105mm having been developed post WWII and used during Vietnam conflict is lighter than the 101 with a longer range 19 vs 17.5. It is also readily available from old US stock

The m119/l118 is probably a good second choice, with performance and weight similar to the m102 and the option to get a digitization package into it. However it is more expensive.

if the country is rich, I would assume it could afford the m777 howitzer. With a cost of about 3 million, you could outfit a battery for the cost of an f16.

Now with a an army about bed size, I would recommend using a composite bn of 2 batteries of 105 and 1 of 155 or 2 batteries of 120 mortars and 1 of 105 or 155 how.


Obtw I not only have experience with al how described, but I am also the platform manager for m119 an m777 systems

 

[Petike]

Obtw I not only have experience with al how described, but I am also the platform manager for m119 an m777 systems

I am glad that I have an expert in the trade replying in this discussion. I'll consider your advice as well when I'll compile all the lists that people have added so far to the thread.

I'd suggest reversing the order of acquisitions might make more sense - Spanish mortars, with Italian artillery (the Oto Melara piece discussed previously).

That's all right, I never said that Spanish-made equipment is a must. I was just interested whether there is really anything to choose from when it comes to the arms industry of that particular country.

BTW, any German or Swiss guns and mortars that might fit my general requirements (not solely the ones for those two little mountainous countries) ?

 

[historyfool]

I am glad that I have an expert in the trade replying in this discussion. I'll consider your advice as well when I'll compile all the lists that people have added so far to the thread.



That's all right, I never said that Spanish-made equipment is a must. I was just interested whether there is really anything to choose from when it comes to the arms industry of that particular country.

BTW, any German or Swiss guns and mortars that might fit my general requirements (not solely the ones for those two little mountainous countries) ?

Germany used only towed guns already mentioned, that is the M101, the Mod 56, the FH70 and the RT F1. Only in the FH 70 development they really participated, but their versions of the 105mm guns got new barrels and in case of the M101 a muzzle brake.

 

[modelcitizen]

(fwiw, I read the first page out of three so far, and I'm probably limited for time, alas, alas!!!!! First world problems )


The thing I would reckon as a Good Idea would be a highly trained citizen reserve, what with compulsory military service and requirements for each household to contain a "safe box" with at least as much weaponry and ammunition for several people to at least make invaders pay for poking their noses in.

The box should include items that are practically foolproof for maintenance and use, an assault rifle equivalent to the AK-47 and whichever mortar is similarly configured. (The safe box also includes flak vests, helmets, multi-season camo outer-wear, and, as noted, ammo ammo ammo.)

Such a thing for each home shouldn't cost more than each home having say a small automobile or really nice appliances, and, with the state financing the provision of such weaponry, the only price the citizens would be expected to pay would be their blood push come to shove (as well as their taxes and time given to military service and regular training/reserve duty/drills.)

Naturally, each home (apartment buildings or otherwise) have well-constructed fallout shelters, too, replete with a decent network of tunnels in the capital city... etc.

 

[KACKO]

The thing I would reckon as a Good Idea would be a highly trained citizen reserve, what with compulsory military service and requirements for each household to contain a "safe box" with at least as much weaponry and ammunition for several people to at least make invaders pay for poking their noses in.

Little Switzerland?

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

The L-118 and L-119 105mm howitzers - The Irish Army operates 19 of them, and they're Ireland's only military capabilities (Ireland may have 5 million people, but it has an army of 8,500 thanks to a notoriously low defense budget).

Also what the US Army uses.

 

[modelcitizen]

Little Switzerland?

Precisely!

 

[sparky42]

Also what the US Army uses.

I love how people skip over that part, when we spend we at least pick equipment with a wide user base most of the time.
For example apparently we were the first export customer for the Javelin anti tank system for example.

 

[Petike]

The thing I would reckon as a Good Idea would be a highly trained citizen reserve, what with compulsory military service and requirements for each household to contain a "safe box" with at least as much weaponry and ammunition for several people to at least make invaders pay for poking their noses in.

The box should include items that are practically foolproof for maintenance and use, an assault rifle equivalent to the AK-47 and whichever mortar is similarly configured. (The safe box also includes flak vests, helmets, multi-season camo outer-wear, and, as noted, ammo ammo ammo.)

Such a thing for each home shouldn't cost more than each home having say a small automobile or really nice appliances, and, with the state financing the provision of such weaponry, the only price the citizens would be expected to pay would be their blood push come to shove (as well as their taxes and time given to military service and regular training/reserve duty/drills.) Naturally, each home (apartment buildings or otherwise) have well-constructed fallout shelters, too, replete with a decent network of tunnels in the capital city... etc.

Actually, Andorra in my TL will have such a system, inspired by the Swiss one and built upon its own wacky existing military laws (everyone who owns a gun automatically becomes a soldier/militia in times of need, etc.). However, don't expect anything as excesive as "mortars at home". In case someone goes off his rocker and tries to spark civil unrest, heavily armed robberies or just senseless manslaughter, the weapons stockpiles for the reservists will be under strict enough control. Not too strict to prevent or hamper the effectivenes of a potential mobilization, but strict enough to avoid people playing Wild West with state-owned military equipment. (Because we know all too well how having paramilitary reservists with weapon stockpiles freely at hand went down once the increasingly uncontrolled TOs started doing questionable things during the Yugoslav civil wars.)

As for other countries, Liechtenstein might also receive such a system, since Switzerland is right next door - but the backbone will still be the professional peace time army corps. Reservists will only come into play once there will be a legitimate fear of military threat.

I like your civil defence ideas, though. I will definitely have something like that implemented in the TL - a lot of the fictional armed forces I'm developing are CD-heavy anyway...

For example apparently we were the first export customer for the Javelin anti tank system for example.

Interesting. You learn something new every day...

 

[Petike]

BTW, which OTL military trucks and vehicles would you NOT recommend for towing the artillery we've discussed so far. WOuld there be any particular car model that would be ill-suited to towing them (at least without reasonable modifications) ?

For instance, one of my armed forces uses Pinzgauers as its basic trucks. Would those be enough for the Mod 56s and L118s or would the two TA models be too much for that particular car ? Wiki tells me it can tow quite a bit of weight, but I want to be sure.

 

[Gunnarnz]

For instance, one of my armed forces uses Pinzgauers as its basic trucks. Would those be enough for the Mod 56s and L118s <snip>

I believe the Royal artillery units use Pinzgauers to tow their L118s, the units in this country certainly do. As long as the Mod 56 is no heavier (I believe it's lighter) they shouldn't have any trouble.

I know that HMMWVs can tow them as well, although they're a bit small for the crew and all their kit as well. Unimogs are ok, not sure about anything else. But I imagine any 2.5 tonne truck or equivalent would be able to do a satisfactory job.

 

[Sharkani Rend]

Recoilless artilery.

 

[Genmotty]

Do nations this small even need to consider such armaments in the world world? I seems just a little bit ludicrous to be honest.


Within my home nation, if I was to enlarge it to a confederation of the Channel Islands as a whole we might start to get need the thread ball park number....but I certainly wouldn't recommend artillery guns, rather go for simple cheap rocket artillery since a gun requires all the complex logistic work and arsenal to transport the various calibres of shells equipment out into the field.

A small nation is probably not going to be able to ever have the serious forces to attack and occupy another nation, therefore everything is about 'the defence'. A rocket as a self contained 'point at the enemy and launch' is much more versatile as launchers can be improvised...including mobile ones without any need for high tech systems.

Thirdly compared to a shell a rocket doesn't necessarally need as complex a munitions plant (depends on the nature of the rocket however) and so in terms of cost you could likely stockpile a hell of a lot of cheap rockets in peacetime giving you an amazing 'alpha strike' ability in the early days of your conflict since while a gun has a finite rate of fire, salvos of rocket fire could be potentially unlimited in rate of fire.


Fourthly I point to areas of the world like the Gaza strip where militant troops have been able to inflict 'significant damage' on a more technologically and economically advanced nation.

Hence I would propose any rocket warhead system along these lines for your project;

Disclaimer: I do not support either side in their conflict. If you have any comment that you must voice on this subject, send a PM to me rather than derail the thread. Thankyou.

 

[racevedo88]

BTW, which OTL military trucks and vehicles would you NOT recommend for towing the artillery we've discussed so far. WOuld there be any particular car model that would be ill-suited to towing them (at least without reasonable modifications) ?

For instance, one of my armed forces uses Pinzgauers as its basic trucks. Would those be enough for the Mod 56s and L118s or would the two TA models be too much for that particular car ? Wiki tells me it can tow quite a bit of weight, but I want to be sure.

The of road weight restrictions makes it suitable for the m119/118 it is however unsuitable for the m198 or m777. If your country can afford or needs (I foresee a need for larger truck for disaster relief operations) you can use the fmtv 5 ton or mtvr 7.5 truck. The first one can be airdropped, the second one has the advantage that it can be purchased with the alligator armor package to protect the gun crew against ied's and higher caliber small arms rounds

 

[racevedo88]

Do nations this small even need to consider such armaments in the world world? I seems just a little bit ludicrous to be honest.


Within my home nation, if I was to enlarge it to a confederation of the Channel Islands as a whole we might start to get need the thread ball park number....but I certainly wouldn't recommend artillery guns, rather go for simple cheap rocket artillery since a gun requires all the complex logistic work and arsenal to transport the various calibres of shells equipment out into the field.

A small nation is probably not going to be able to ever have the serious forces to attack and occupy another nation, therefore everything is about 'the defence'. A rocket as a self contained 'point at the enemy and launch' is much more versatile as launchers can be improvised...including mobile ones without any need for high tech systems.

Thirdly compared to a shell a rocket doesn't necessarally need as complex a munitions plant (depends on the nature of the rocket however) and so in terms of cost you could likely stockpile a hell of a lot of cheap rockets in peacetime giving you an amazing 'alpha strike' ability in the early days of your conflict since while a gun has a finite rate of fire, salvos of rocket fire could be potentially unlimited in rate of fire.


Fourthly I point to areas of the world like the Gaza strip where militant troops have been able to inflict 'significant damage' on a more technologically and economically advanced nation.

Hence I would propose any rocket warhead system along these lines for your project;

Sorry, having been on the receiving side of attacks by these, they are highly unreliable and inaccurate when fired by untrained personnel. When fired by trained personnel they require a long time to set up. Economically they don't make sense as you have to buy the whole rocket, the 105 mm arty shell when mass produced costs about $100.00. They also do not allow you to fire on direct fire mode, which is something to consider if you have ever hit a hot Lz/dz or need to engage against a ground attack. For the last one there is nothing better than a 105 beehive round. Finally the rockets are not air droppable which the arty guns and ammo are.

 

[Petike]

I get what you mean, but given the current situation, I don't want to see any such rockets. I've saved the picture, you can now remove it. I don't want this thread to shift to a political debate.

Besides, I have zero intention of having rockets in the arsenals of my fictional militaries (outside of hand-held weapons, aircraft-mounted missiles and maybe a few SAMs in the the biggest of the scenario's countries). So I don't need rockets like these. I'm looking for a plain, bog-standard artillery kit.

 

[AdA]

I believe the Royal artillery units use Pinzgauers to tow their L118s, the units in this country certainly do. As long as the Mod 56 is no heavier (I believe it's lighter) they shouldn't have any trouble.

I know that HMMWVs can tow them as well, although they're a bit small for the crew and all their kit as well. Unimogs are ok, not sure about anything else. But I imagine any 2.5 tonne truck or equivalent would be able to do a satisfactory job.

The Portuguese army used unimogs to tow its M56. They are not built for extensive towing over rough ground, being lightly built with mountain use in mind, so for that it's better to carry them "en portee".

 

[sparky42]

Ireland seems to use either ACMAT VLRA's (not sure which variant but possibly the 6x6 variant for towing the 105mm guns or the 120mm mortar system) and older Bedford TK's as well (most likely legacy variants)

We have 16 ACMAT's if that helps give you any idea of budget figures.

 

[Petike]

BTW, how about portable AA systems ? Nothing fancy, no rockets, I'm only interested in simple rapidfire cannons. Cheap ones, at that.