Recommend me affordable unmotorized artillery for countries under 350 000 inhabitants

[Petike]

Petike, it occurs to me that the positions of the nations would also play a role in spending. Would the nation have to support the costs of a navy as well or are we talking about only an Army and Air Force?

Only two nations have "navies", but both of them are basically just coast guards, largely identical to the OTL ones. Not much change in that area, whether in terms of spending or deployed numbers. Most of the TL only focuses on ground forces and aerial components. Again, out of this, only two countries have what would come close to a proper (if small) air force, with the rest having only an air wing or air corps equipped with small non-combat aircraft, serving as ground forces support. Three of the seven in total countries don't even have real armies to speak of, just extended versions of their OTL gendarmeries.

Oto Melara Mod 56

Thanks for the recommendation of the Mod 56. I'm loving it already. Two of my nations are rather mountainous, so a small pack howitzer would fit them like a glove.

 

[historyfool]

Seems reasonable. Are there any comparable British, Swedish or German models ? (Besides the British L118, though I understand that some of its derivatives are US-made.) The countries of my TL probably won't be buying Canadian and SA equipment (well, one may buy some Canadian stuff, but just that one), so I'm more interested in surplus US or Euro stuff.

Rheinmetall, Vickers and Oto Melara together developed the FH 70 in the 70s. Britain decommissioned it till 99 and Germany till 2002, thus it might be actually payable at that point. Sweden had the FH77, same time. Both are 155mm like the Canadian one, and frankly that small a country probably won´t operate such big guns under normal circumstances. The Giat LG 1, a more modern 105mm howitzer from France is slightly lighter and slightly longer ranged than the L118. The L119 is a variant of the 118 that uses the widespread American M1 ammunition and another barrel and has therefore much shorter range. A heavy mortar is a viable alternative and there you really should go with Soltam or the RT F1 for western products.

 

[Petike]

Rheinmetall, Vickers and Oto Melara together developed the FH 70 in the 70s. Britain decommissioned it till 99 and Germany till 2002, thus it might be actually payable at that point. Sweden had the FH77, same time. Both are 155mm like the Canadian one, and frankly that small a country probably won´t operate such big guns under normal circumstances. The Giat LG 1, a more modern 105mm howitzer from France is slightly lighter and slightly longer ranged than the L118. The L119 is a variant of the 118 that uses the widespread American M1 ammunition and another barrel and has therefore much shorter range. A heavy mortar is a viable alternative and there you really should go with Soltam or the RT F1 for western products.

OK, I'll look into them a bit deeper (I've already read about them a bit, but not thoroughly).

 

[Mr.J]

My tax dollars at work...

By this point, I think it's more the EU at work.

 

[superkuf]

Directly from Wikipedia, the countries with population in range

Western Sahara 567,000
Solomon Islands 553,935
Suriname 534,000
Luxembourg 511,800
Cape Verde 491,875
Malta 417,617
Brunei 393,162
Bahamas 353,658
Iceland 320,060
Maldives 317,280
Belize 312,971

Notice that most of these countries are islands with few/no enemies or threats but with powerful allies. Brunei is the exception. Due to being islands they probably spend more on their navies (rather: coast guard) than ground troops.

In theory these countries could provide one regular infantery division with divisional artillery in the 155 mm range, but in reality they would rather have batallion-sized units for local security - and these does only need mortars. Let's take Malta - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Malta. One batallion with training and support units. British 81 mm mortars as heaviest piece.

For the question: Directly after WW2 some surplus artillery. Some 25-pounders would be a good choice - usable at both batallion and brigade level.

Later the choice would be to upgrade to 105 mm (M101 as the cheap and reliable solution, M102/L118 as the light and high-tech solution) or switch to mortars.

 

[KACKO]

Or check military of Guyana. Population of around 700 000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Guyana
Or Surinam, population of around 550 000.

 

[Petike]

In theory these countries could provide one regular infantery division with divisional artillery in the 155 mm range, but in reality they would rather have batallion-sized units for local security - and these does only need mortars. Let's take Malta - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Malta. One batallion with training and support units. British 81 mm mortars as heaviest piece.

Jeez, divisions ?! Believe me, I am counting with companies and regiments at best ! An artillery company (or 2-3 companies) would be enough.

Interesting that you bring up Malta. I'm now tempted to include it in my project.

For the question: Directly after WW2 some surplus artillery. Some 25-pounders would be a good choice - usable at both batallion and brigade level.

Later the choice would be to upgrade to 105 mm (M101 as the cheap and reliable solution, M102/L118 as the light and high-tech solution) or switch to mortars.

OK, so it seems those are really a fair bet then... BTW, would a few Mod 56s and a number of small mortars be OK for Andorra and Liechtenstein ? I think it would be enough for the artillery department of their armed forces.

Or check military of Guyana. Population of around 700 000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Guyana
Or Surinam, population of around 550 000.

I already have. I am deliberately researching info on small OTL militaries, just to get an idea of what would be broadly feasible for the countries in my project. Guyana is - at least in terms of population - bigger than all of those countries combined.

 

[andys]

With such a small population, you've got to go for precision weaponry - you don't have the numbers to have lots of unguided tubes. So easily portable 81 and 120mm mortars, including guided rounds like Strix. For longer range, IAI Jumper - precision attack with less waste than unguided fire, so cheaper overall.

Mount everything on lorries or towed by lorries. Jumper is so long ranged that depending on the size of the country it could be in semi-fixed locations. Not entirely fixed, that would make them sitting ducks. With Jumper you can cover a lot of ground with very few men.

 

[jlckansas]

You need to look at what terrain you are going to be using the weapons in, what types of troops are going to be using it, and how much you want to spend on training on the weapons.


Example of the terrain is mountains, steppe/desert, forest/jungle/ or island/swamp enviroment.

Types of troops are conscripts vs regulars or a mix of them with cadre made up of regulars and conscripts as limited time soldiers in the less technical roles. This works with the how much you are willing to spend on training with the weapons. Ammunition costs money so it literally is how much bang for your buck do you want.

 

[historyfool]

J
OK, so it seems those are really a fair bet then... BTW, would a few Mod 56s and a number of small mortars be OK for Andorra and Liechtenstein ? I think it would be enough for the artillery department of their armed forces.

Seems a reasonable replacement for world war surplus stuff during the 60s or 70s given their terrain. If there is the budget the guns will probably be entirely replaced by mortars once guided mortar rounds come around during the 90s.

 

[AdA]

D30

Just go soviet and buy the D30. Original USSR made if bought early, used ones from an ex soviet republic or new Chinese built copies. It's cheap, reliable, and will outperform Western 105mm weapons.

 

[historyfool]

Just go soviet and buy the D30. Original USSR made if bought early, used ones from an ex soviet republic or new Chinese built copies. It's cheap, reliable, and will outperform Western 105mm weapons.

Bit difficult during the cold war for a Western country I´d say.

 

[AdA]

Bit difficult during the cold war for a Western country I´d say.

The Chinese would sell copies for anyone who paid. (their M86 copy was only introduced in the 80s, though) Think of it as an artillery equivalent of their F6 fighter. And a buy through an intermediary, like an African state could be arranged.
It would not be plausible, but not impossible either. A non aligned country could even buy directly from the USSR.

 

[Michel Van]

During the Indochina wars (aka Vietnam War) the Vietkong moved heavy artillery.
In parts on horses, true terrain consider impossible for transport.

the French had also this interesting weapon system

the ACMA Troupes Aeról Portées Mle. 56.
a militarized Vespa scooter carrying a M20 75mm recoilless rifle.

used with French Parachute units in the Suez campaign, Indochina (after the end of direct fighting but before the eventual French withdrawal in 1957), combat in Algeria (until 1962) and cold war service with NATO facing down the potential Soviet threat to Western Europe. The 800 Vespa was phased out by the mid 1970s and replaced by larger vehicles.

source: http://www.royalflushsales.com/321/bazooka-vespa-acma-tap-56-scooter

 

[Petike]

Ah, yes, who could forget good ol' "Cannon Wheels", as I like to call her !

But I think such artillery motorcycles don't really fit the needs of the fictional militaries that I'm devising for my TL. They were designed as inexpensive light tactical vehicles for paratrooper units, and they themselves were to be paradropped behind enemy lines.

Just go soviet and buy the D30. Original USSR made if bought early, used ones from an ex soviet republic or new Chinese built copies. It's cheap, reliable, and will outperform Western 105mm weapons.

I said no WP weapons, because none of those countries has any relations with the USSR. Giving them Soviet-manufactured or Chinese-manufactured weapons makes no sence within my TL. Sorry.

 

[Derek Pullem]

It's not a brilliant weapon but FH70 might get on such a countries shortlist for its capabilities on paper.

 

[AdA]

Ah, yes, who could forget good ol' "Cannon Wheels", as I like to call her !

But I think such artillery motorcycles don't really fit the needs of the fictional militaries that I'm devising for my TL. They were designed as inexpensive light tactical vehicles for paratrooper units, and they themselves were to be paradropped behind enemy lines.



I said no WP weapons, because none of those countries has any relations with the USSR. Giving them Soviet-manufactured or Chinese-manufactured weapons makes no sence within my TL. Sorry.

OK. Oto Melara 105mm M56 then.

 

[Petike]

It's not a brilliant weapon but FH70 might get on such a countries shortlist for its capabilities on paper.

Thanks, I'll look into it.

 

[Gunnarnz]

It's not a brilliant weapon but FH70 might get on such a countries shortlist for its capabilities on paper.

I honestly think the FH70 is just too big for such a small requirement. 105mm artillery is probably the biggest they could plausibly need, maintain, and/or easily transport; and I'm starting to think more and more that 120mm mortars might be a better bet. The French make a pretty good one, I think, but I forget the name. If you absolutely must have something heavier and the Soltam 160mm mortar is too short-range, some kind of cheap MRL would fit the bill.

 

[Petike]

Are there any good Spanish models of the kind of small artillery I'm looking for ? One of the nations borders Spain and I would like them to have some equipment of Spanish origin in addition to French and other Western European.

Also, any Italian producers of good modern mortars ?

Merci for any suggestions.