Smart move: it will create a separate identity and thereby ensure they will be more open to influence from Lisbon and way less to the rest of Kannada.
Rebirth of an Empire "O Renascimento de um Império" v2.0
- Thread starter Lusitania
- Start date
Smart move: it will create a separate identity and thereby ensure they will be more open to influence from Lisbon and way less to the rest of Kannada.
Just caught up with this TL after a couple of months' hiatus and I'm excited to hear about this 3 Year's War and the Ceylon Compromise. We've already gotten a hint that the Portuguese will recapture Malacca from the Dutch; it looks like Ceylon may be on the table too. There's probably still Portuguese-derived communities on both with some amount of presence that they can rely on, right? (Kaffirs in Ceylon, Kristangs in Malacca)
Makes me think that leveraging existing Luso-descended communities will be a theme of Portuguese expansion in the 19th century, based on (presumably) successful results in Ceylon and Malacca.
Actually let's just rephrase that and say I wonder how much sweet revenge the Portuguese will take out on the Dutch. It'd be mad humorous to see them seize Cape Town if only as a reference to another great Portuguese TL
Makes me think that leveraging existing Luso-descended communities will be a theme of Portuguese expansion in the 19th century, based on (presumably) successful results in Ceylon and Malacca.
Actually let's just rephrase that and say I wonder how much sweet revenge the Portuguese will take out on the Dutch. It'd be mad humorous to see them seize Cape Town if only as a reference to another great Portuguese TL
Lusitania
Donor
Portugal or Portuguese India have just come through a massive herculean effort and have expanded the empire and given the country solid footing in the north, but unfortunely while it was busy dealing with local adversaries, it faced an even stronger and more cunning adversaries and would be forced to fight not only in Portuguese India but in almost every corner of the globe. Would the Portuguese survive unscathed, be triumphant or have to ask for terms. It will not be able to ask for assistance like in the 7 year war. It will be on its own as Britain attention is completely concentrated on rebels in the 13 colonies.
Actually an accurate depiction for Portuguese India was being told what to do by Lisbon. Although it was more like guidance provided from Afar while it was really upto the guys on the ground and in specific regions to accomplish those goals be they defend the empire or attack. What is most accurate though is that a new player who had been lurking in the shadows decides that the Portuguese are tempting and easy target. We now really need to see if that is true.
Portuguese India is slowly differentiating itself from rest of India, as we can see the Portuguese were adamant in reshaping their territory into one that served the country. Development, culture, religion, economy and politics are were intertwined and new Portuguese India was the outcome of the mixture.
First we would like to welcome you to the TL and glad you are with us. As you readers can attest we strive for this TL to be the most complete TL and accurate on the board. Our chapters are complete and cover a lot of information. To date we have only covered 30 years into the TL shows how many topics and complexity of the TL.
Now as for the remainder of the 3 year war, the Portuguese will still face two more adversaries and we still need to cover the main reason that the 3 year war broke out. Now as far as how each of the two major conflicts (French and Dutch) will play out we will slowly over the next few moths cover both. I cannot reveal the outcomes but we need to remember the Treaty of Paris that resoles the 3 year war is where the real conflict occurs for the actual battles were simply opening moves of the chess game.
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Madeleine Birchfield
Banned
Aren't the French and the Dutch aiding the American rebels and fighting the British on the seas as well? They were OTL
Thanks for the welcome. I'm glad you refuse to spoil future events in this TL too, actually. I find it tends to have the writer get muddled down answering more questions or defending their choices. I'll be keeping up with regularity from now on
Lusitania
Donor
You are right the French and Dutch were fighting the British both in TL and in iotl. The difference as eluded to in post #704 when we introduced the 3 year war was the marriage of king Joseph to king George’s daughter our Queen Charlotte placed Portugal firmly on British side of the conflict. For news of British acceptance of the betrothal arrived at same time in Lisbon as the declaration of war by French and Dutch.
The Portuguese had always been ally of the British (British oldest ally). That it had during the reign of king Joseph I emulated many of the reforms of Britain down to schism of the Portuguese Catholic Church from Rome put Portugal in bad light or at least suspicious from other European countries. Then during ARW the announcement of betrothal of Portuguese and British royal families left no doubt as to Portugal’s intentions and alliances were (not to mention that both French and Dutch were jealous of Portuguese rise in power during the last 30 years).
Another point was that prior to betrothal Portuguese merchants were heavily involved in smuggling goods and weapons to the 13 colonist rebels (Portuguese Azores being ideally situated half way in the Atlantic). The betrothal put a stop to all trade both legitimate and clandestine to the rebels. This was another reminder to the powers supporting the rebels that Portugal had allied with Britain against the rebels.
We glad you enjoying the fruits of our labor. As for revealing information, we try to clarify points like I did just above but the TL has lots of twists and turns and makes great reading with detailed war and battle sections followed by governance sections to show readers the structure and reforms that would support the next set of wars and expansion. So we try and keep revealing future events to minimum.
enjoy
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does this mean they entered communion with each other or re-established formal relationship(also is it just me or does the pcc resemble orthodox doctrine?)
will we be shown this event in a later chapter because i cant find any reference(interested in how this happened)
rip spain & glory to the empire
Also will we be shown how other states have perceived the reforms within portugal and its rapid rise(overall)
Honestly awesome tl
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Lusitania
Donor
Hi there and welcome to the TL.
Try to answer all your questions.
1) there will be both a reconciliation and sort of meeting of minds during the TL version Vatican I. It will bring the various Catholic dogmas closer together on many aspects and also diplomatically allow the various Catholics to better communicate and Bring them closer. I cannot and will not elaborate more at this time since we have almost 100 years of history to go through.
The reason I had written that in is that after Portuguese Catholic Church schism they will continue to stay apart over time but there will always be a part of Portuguese who want to re-establish that bond again. While on the other side the separation of Portuguese from Rome will much further implications especially during the 19th century and Portuguese political, military and economic size being more pronounced. Which will also impact rest of Catholic Church.
hope that sort of answers you question but as far as I willing to say at this time.
2) yes queen is featured in several sections such as two previous posts about her early influence in Portugal. In the section king Joseph the great we talked about her involvement with poor, then in ministry of Heath we see her involvement in get Portuguese to accept consumption of potatoes. She will have an important part in these upcoming sections of the 3 year war.
Plus much more in future, in all we can state that she became an integral part of king Joseph the great ability to guide the Portuguese empire.
3) as I indicated in one of my posts at end of each war or conflict we do have have peace negotiations which in case of 3 year war is a separate section. Then we have a major section on integration. We just had that with integration of expanded Diu, Daman and northern Goa.
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Speaking about religion, how did the PCC dealt with the Indian Eastern Catholics such as the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church?
Lusitania
Donor
Thanks for asking, the information we can provide at this time is limited. This is because PCC and in its evangelical as well as interchurch interaction with remaining RC within the country and other Christian denominations both in the empire and surrounding countries will be discussed in the Religion section at end 1777-1799 section. We did this because this way we can cover wider and longer term religious topics and movements.
What we can state is that the PCC is more tolerant of other religions including non christian. The eastern Catholic Churches would be treated like all other religious groups. Are you opposed to or preach against Portuguese control and administration? If not you are free to practice your faith.
As for specific policies and doctrine interaction I will defer to the religion section. Hope it helps.
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The Three-Years War (1780-1783) - The Luso-French Maritime War (1780-1782) (1 of 7)
Lusitania
Donor
The Three-Years War (1780-1783) (cont.)
The Luso-French Maritime War (1780-1782) (1 of 7)
The Luso-French Maritime War (1780-1782) (1 of 7)
In 1778, the French signed a treaty of friendship with the revolting United States and declared war on Great Britain in support of the American Colonists, hoping to take advantage of Britain’s preoccupation with the war of independence to regaining lost territory and prestige in the Seven Years War by starting a new Anglo-French conflict. This strategy had been motivated well since the Seven Years War by the Foreign Ministers of France, including Vergennes who harnessed Franco-Spanish energies towards agitating the Americans and removing impediments to war.
In fact, war would have begun earlier in 1776 were it not for the news of the British capturing New York, which could have proven a negative turning point for the Americans. The Battle of Saratoga, however, reversed the tide and North’s government no longer had leverage to achieve a status quo ante bellum treaty. Prospects of war with France swelled as a result. Meanwhile, however, France juggled its game of influence over German states to avoid war with the east and its own interference in the American affair was likely to endanger its friendship with Austria found only after 200 years of war (though this would actually please many a court member).
Moreover, 1770 brought forth the personal union of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette, a marriage unpopular with the people and nobles alike after two centuries of French Kings promoting aggression towards the Habsburgs. Vergennes himself held deep hostility towards Vienna and would successfully sever military obligations to it by 1778.
At same time, parallel to the union of France and Austria, an announcement by the British and Portuguese governments of the betrothal of King Joseph II of Portugal to Princess Charlotte, King George III eldest daughter, was viewed by the French as a reinforcement of a rival alliance.
Setting
“Tensions with Paris rising; French embassy denies involvement in ‘Rope Busting’ and has closed its doors. Government cabinet approves increased budget for Navy Ministry. Could this mean war?”
-Lisbon Gazette front page, dated 16 May 1780
“Tensions with Paris rising; French embassy denies involvement in ‘Rope Busting’ and has closed its doors. Government cabinet approves increased budget for Navy Ministry. Could this mean war?”
-Lisbon Gazette front page, dated 16 May 1780
As a result, by 1779, it was obvious to many European countries, particularly the French and the Dutch, that the Portuguese had no intentions of reducing ties with London despite the massive expansion the British made in North America and India and the ongoing conflicts in the Thirteen Colonies. As a matter of fact, Portugal reformed its colonial policies to avoid the turmoil of the American Revolutionaries through the M.A.D. and took steps to fortifying its navy significantly through the ‘Hundred Thousand Tons’ program of its Navy Ministry; by 1780 the Portuguese Navy rivaled the Imperial Russian fleets in sheer weight displacement despite a significantly inferior country size and resource bank while the French and Dutch navies were in relative decline.
It was also known many artillery pieces and guns were now being produced in Lisbon, Rio and even Goa with the aim of rearming the Portuguese Armed Forces and that new military depots were being established. While the sheer size of the army had stagnated, it was undergoing extensive rearmament and modernization, possessing the fourth most advanced artillery in Europe in technological terms by the start of the decade and a new line of guns outfitted with rebuffed hollowing techniques for more precise crafting.
Lisbon diplomats therefore worked with a handicap, trying to ensure Portuguese neutrality despite an obviously growing firepower stockpile. By the time French eyes turned to India, no one in Western Europe doubted Portugal was prepping for war. They did have one ace up their sleeve, however; the ongoing difficulties in France triggered by the defeat at the Seven Years War and the increasing strain of supporting American Revolutionaries allowed diplomats to present offers of food and relief shipments and discounts to soothe French crispation, something the Franks appreciated as an offer of humanitarian aid from a well-meaning mercantile country that could not be misconstrued as an affront to the British, either.
In 1778, the Pombal government, in a gesture to pacify Paris, authorized the docking of French ships on Portuguese ports at lessened costs on their route to India on the grounds that, as a neutral country, Portugal was entitled to offer such aid despite an alliance with Britain unless actual hostilities broke out. This helped France significantly due to their burdened war budget by allowing them to make more affordable stops on the way to Mahé and Pondicherry and was appreciated enough by France to accept recognizing Portugal as a neutral party. It effectively defused the situation for the time being but, unfortunately, tensions would continue to rise beneath the shades.
The Shadow Conflict
“Your security forces, the SIMP agents, are like the dirty crows that plagued the city after the Earthquake; they follow the stench of dead bodies, they bathe themselves with the blood on the ground and their return is usually a sign of more bad news. I like crows, though; they keep people on edge.”
-Count John Linhares, Minister of Army & Foreign Affairs, while explaining his daily labor and duties to the young King Joseph II
“Your security forces, the SIMP agents, are like the dirty crows that plagued the city after the Earthquake; they follow the stench of dead bodies, they bathe themselves with the blood on the ground and their return is usually a sign of more bad news. I like crows, though; they keep people on edge.”
-Count John Linhares, Minister of Army & Foreign Affairs, while explaining his daily labor and duties to the young King Joseph II
For the following two years the ships of France faced less costs to stop at Portuguese ports on their way to India, easing their expeditions against the British in Asia, but this increased Luso-Franco interaction, however, triggered a greater involvement of the SIMP spy network in commerce between 1778 and 1780. Most of the French ships passing through Portuguese docks faced scrutiny unknown to the French by the Portuguese national intelligence agents with the objective of reporting notable agents of the French state to Lisbon. It was understood by Paris that Lisbon took notes on its ships, but it was not implied this kind of scrutiny was taking place.
Eventually, in 1779, SIMP agents confirmed the presence of Marquis of Bussy in Lisbon’s shores despite French attempts to conceal his passage. When questioned about the reason of his presence, sources revealed he was to lead the French effort against the British in India, which was already expected by the Portuguese, but also, most importantly, that he carried orders of weapon shipments larger than normal, as well as several diplomatic signatures. The SIMP interpreted this as the first sign of the French intentions of allying themselves with a power in India, most likely Tipu Sultan, and determined this person to be of immense threat.
Marquis de Bussy-Castelnau
His passage through Lisbon went noticed and warned the Portuguese about his intentions to ally with Mysore beforehand
The official policy of the Government, however, was one of peacekeeping with France. Hence, even though it was aware through the SIMP reports that the Marquis was a person of interest, it staved off any serious or harmful actions against him so as to not promote hostilities on the Frankish monarchy. The Marquis was allowed through, but what followed was a chilling of Luso-French relations as the SIMP and even the PRP itself, began engaging an undercover war against French agents present in their territories and abroad.
In 1779, three French captains were detained in Lisbon temporarily for carrying new suspicious weaponry cargo. That same year later on an actual arrest was made in Oporto of a man accused to be a Parisian spy. In early 1780, three PRP bureaucrats and a SIMP agent were killed by a runaway French agent.
But by far the most serious incident, more so for that fact that it was leaked to the public, was the busting of a spy node occurred in the Lisbon dock in January 1780, when a group of SIMP agents, suspicious of local craftsmen imported under the protection of Minister Ratton, attempted to search the workshop of a local roper and was received with the firing of pistols upon pressing for answers, leading to a violent squabble, detention and injuring in the public line of sight. The workshop was discovered to contain compromising information like letters with the Marquis of Bussy’s handwriting, weaponry and maps of the French ship movement, all of which, combined with the arrested attempts to resist, cemented the incident as the capture of spies from the French crown.
The Rope Busting
The “Detenção da Corda”, as it became known, was the first of the shadowy conflict’s skirmishes to not be able to be swept under the rug and triggered the official breakdown of the Paris-Lisbon transit agreement.
After all this it was clear to both governments that Portugal and France were in an undeclared spy war with French agents trying to conceal shipments not agreed to by the Portuguese and, on the other side, Portuguese agents trying to hunt these down and arrest them. Incarcerations escalated after this and popular opinion of the French and, more importantly, their revolutionaries, entered a downward spiral amongst the Portuguese bourgeoisie and paupers.
Relations continued to sour when attempts to establish a transit agreement more favorable to the Portuguese failed. Meanwhile, George III monitored the situation from a pacifying standpoint, maintaining his line that “he did not welcome war with France, but was prepared for it”. It was Portugal’s expressed wish to stay out of the non-colonial British conflicts unless Britain herself was threatened and George III did not want to endanger the country he just sent his daughter to be Queen of, even if this very circumstance had escalated the conflict to begin with.
Necker Talks, French Crisis & Rising Aggression
“Mon Roi, I’m sure this is just a misunderstanding, Monsieur Necker ensures me so... though the pistols, the corpses and all the other accursed evidence sure make it a hard case for me to defend.”
-Minister Ratton, pleading to King Joseph II
“Mon Roi, I’m sure this is just a misunderstanding, Monsieur Necker ensures me so... though the pistols, the corpses and all the other accursed evidence sure make it a hard case for me to defend.”
-Minister Ratton, pleading to King Joseph II
The gravity of the spy busting, however, heavily pitted popular opinion against France and its messengers. The Finance Minister Jacome Ratton faced the lowest level of popularity immediately before the Three-Year War due to his clear Frankish origin and it was only due to the years of successful reformation and hard work in Portugal that he was kept floating above an acceptable level to stay in office.
The increasing tensions around this character prompted Ratton to make a gesture of honor and officially oppose cabinet propositions to satiate French demands with gold; citing the obligations of his position, Ratton argued that bribing the French into a non-aggression agreement would hurt the country twice as much as any open war or severed trade contract and suggested making extended trade agreements instead to alleviate France’s tense internal economic situation.
To this end, Ratton entered in correspondence with none other than his French government counterpart, the widely popular Jacques Necker.
Jacques Necker
1732-1804
Swiss-born banker and statesman
Necker’s diplomacy with Portugal and his dismissing were respectively vital to staving off and triggering the Three Years War, as well as the French Revolution itself
It was between 1778 and 1780 that the two men exchanged the correspondence that helped stave off the war and improve Luso-French relations, as well as important contracts that, at Portugal’s expense, eased costs on food exportations to France. Necker, however, being a Swiss Protestant, wasn’t popular with his own government despite his talent and success in relieving the steep crisis in the country. Ratton was placed in a situation almost mirroring Necker, especially during the Pombalist Revolution, so the two statesmen formed a natural pair in exchanging ideas and agreements.
Necker’s situation was far more unsustainable, however, especially with the growing animosity between Paris and Lisbon. Some French rivals believed he was colluding with the trading nation to steal from France. Necker was therefore dismissed from power and the situation between the two countries changed radically; in 1780, Paris, now deeply involved in war against England, officially issued an ultimatum demanding the restoration of open transit through Lusitanian ports.
Risking life and limb, the kingdom of Portugal refused, and thus the Three-Year War began.
Note:
The Luso-French Maritime War was a significant war and major challenge for the Portuguese Empire. It was the first time the Portuguese were being tested by a European power after the fiasco of the 7 year war in which the Portuguese had to be bailed out by the British. The Portuguese Empire of 1782 was not the same country from 20 years earlier. This was a country that had re-built its navy and armed forces. Instituted major and complete overhaul of its naval and army officer and troop training and recruitment. While the Portuguese were not as powerful as the French it had one advantage on its side, that France was also fighting the British forces throughout the world and could not devote its full force on the POrtuguese. But was the Portuguese rebuilding enough? Would the Portuguese navy and armed forces be ready to meet and defend the country? Those were the major questions not only on the minds of the people but the nobles, government and merchants. Questions/Comments
Note regarding posting of this section. The Luso-French Maritime War is over 40 pages and will be divided in approximately seven sections.
Note that iOTL the Portuguese were able to sit out this war. But growth of Portuguese Empire, the recent betrothal of British King's eldest daughter to the Portuguese king and the refusal of the Portuguese to bow down to the French threat meant it would be forced to fight .
Please return on February 23 as we post the 2nd part in The Three-Years War (1780 -1784) - The Luso-French Maritime War (1780-1782).
They are,thougth i have to say that they brought this onto themselves(from what I understand the demands that the colonies had were reasonable not to sure on that thought)
Also france driving itself to debt just to spite britain is a situation britain and France's enemies would find both outrageous and fruitful
Ultimately the french lose more colonies ,Britain is weakened(though they will probably take land from France)and portugal expands
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Lusitania
Donor
The “Revolting” in the sentence was a verb not an adjective. We are describing the action of the colonists. They had revolted against the British and signed a treaty with France. We were not expressing our opinions about the colonists.
Until the betrothal of king Joseph II to British kings daughter the Portuguese due to their location we’re doing a fair amount of “trade” with the rebelling colonist despite British displeasure. Our position in the war going from neutral (open for business) to neutral (closed ports) was a condition of the betrothal. Even so Portuguese attitudes towards the 13 colonist was one of indifference even while we were sucked into multiple wars with British adversaries.
IOTL France really did screw herself by being the primary lender to the colonists. Providing $$ it did not actually have and had to borrow itself. Putting great strains on its finances. This of course partially led to the French Revolution.
Ironically the French turned against the colonists in the negotiations fearing their demands would negatively impact French interests in North America. In turn the British and Americans concluded their own treaty ending the war and establishing a strong trade link between Britain and USA. Thus the French actions did nothing to temper British strength and power. The only thing they did was to refocus the British empire in new areas.
As for iTTL
how will both the British and French fare in the TL?
The British decision to allow the betrothal just as things were getting difficult for the British were just coincidence the British government said. That France took the “bait” and decided that Portugal was an ally of the British and following an incident in Lisbon that could of been resolved peacefully by level heads was suddenly viewed with anger and greed by many in Paris and as a way for France extract some colonies and profit from Britain’s only ally.
In case people were wondering, yes Portugal was the only ally Britain had that was supporting them in the war. So to attack Portugal made sense to the French, for if the Portuguese were in trouble then it would place pressure on Britain to provide assistance to its ally thus weakening British forces fighting the French and colonist and ultimately weaken Britain.
The Portuguese had been a relatively weak opponent in the 7 year war, therefore no reason to think otherwise. While they had some success against “savages” and “non-civilized” countries recently did not mean they would fare any better against a true adversary. Therefore French attitudes towards the Portuguese were not all that favorable.
As for outcomes we will see how the war plays out and Portuguese fortunes fare.
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Konkani is not a dialect of Kannada. As far as I know, it seems to be an offshoot of either Hindi, Marathi or Sanskrit, though I am not sure which one.
If the Portuguese succeed in creating an inherent Luso-ness in their piece of India, then they might well be able to keep it in the modern era, à la Macau. Great work Lusitania! You honour your namesake.
Lusitania
Donor
It could very well be that by time modern era arrives that Portuguese India has changed enough to be so different from “British” or more specifically non-Portuguese India that they be incompatible to unite as single country. More specifics about the modern era or 20th century be premature at moment. But those are valid points.
as for kudos about the TL a lot of new writing depth and detail is as result of the dedication and skill of this TL co-author Thrudgelmir2333.
on behalf of both of us thank you for the warm thoughts and most importantly you being a fan and reader.
Lusitania & Thrudgelmir2333
Lusitania
Donor
That is not inconceivable but highly doubtful, the portuguese navy and armed forces while greatly increased during the war period of 1780-1783 were engaged in several wars almost simultaneously. They were fighting against the Maratha which was not a cakewalk and required the commitment of substantial forces both land and sea. Then they were fighting the French forces in the Indian Ocean, south Atlantic and North Atlantic. Lastly they were fighting the Dutch throughout Indian Ocean and Atlantic.
Plus the Portuguese can’t seem to be “getting too big for its britches” for all we may want massive conquest the gains have to be appropriate to our strength and ability to rule them, so while Portugal could have made huge military conquest it also needs to have a “massive diplomatic victory” during peace negotiations.
Diplomacy during this time period was an art and many times when you thought a country was completely defeated and would loose everything it would cobble together a diplomatic feat that defied its losses on the field. Take for example the peace outcome of the 7 year war. France has lost all its American possessions yet during negotiation offered back half of them. It abandoned New France for the profitable sugar Caribbean colonies and access to Grand Banks. If we are to look iotl what the French were able to accomplish diplomatically during the Vienna congress its astounding.
Therefore Portuguese military victories have to be strong which give it a strong bargaining position in the peace negotiations but nothing is for certain.
Lastly we will need to wait for few months yet before we get to the final peace negotiations and find out what we get for all our blood and sweat.
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Now that you say it... yes, you're right. No big Portuguese India then. 
On a more serious note, what could the Portuguese get from the French? Some French outposts in Africa must be taken. It would serve to improve the Lusitanian connections with the East. Also maybe some Carribean islands, though Brazil could take exception to that. I think the biggest part of the peace for Portugal will be the reparations. If the Portuguese do extraordinarily well, they could demand millions of livres as war reparations. Then sit back and watch as the French economy suffers a meltdown.
On a more serious note, what could the Portuguese get from the French? Some French outposts in Africa must be taken. It would serve to improve the Lusitanian connections with the East. Also maybe some Carribean islands, though Brazil could take exception to that. I think the biggest part of the peace for Portugal will be the reparations. If the Portuguese do extraordinarily well, they could demand millions of livres as war reparations. Then sit back and watch as the French economy suffers a meltdown.