Rearm the ANZACs for the Pacific War.

[Jellico]

The LSTs are a strangely awesome idea. Given they way they are used as disaster relief these days I have thought about them before as a work around for the Treaties. But they are probably a few generations too early as a concept.

Were there any Australian troops on the Western front in 1918?

You might want to hide. This is going to sting.

 

[Father Maryland]

I am starting to wonder if we are too busy looking at the tech and not at the requirements? All that jungle fighting is only really a thing if the Japanese break out of the Malay barrier, and that isn't going to happen. Singapore
Even then the clear threat is in Europe.

With hindsight you would have to build some kind of choco force designed to irritate and delay around PNG with minimal hardware. Anything remotely front line is going to Europe, even in 1936. Even then you are reliant on the UK, US and Dutch coming to the party.

I was actually thinking of the Aussies forming a few equivalents of the later USMC base defense battalions. Basically a rapidly depoyable infantry unit with integrated AA,AT, Arty, signals, engineering, and ideally a few light tanks. The idea is that if a war scare happens they can be rapidly mobilized and sent to defend and reinforce Australia's small island possessions (and those of it's allies). I was thinking the basic idea was that the Island Defense Units would be able to slow down the Japanese enough to give time for Australia to mobilize the rest of it's forces and ideally for her allies to arrive.

Of course as you note when the Germans invade Poland the forces will be thoroughly ripped apart to form units to send to Europe.

 

[Father Maryland]

The LSTs are a strangely awesome idea. Given they way they are used as disaster relief these days I have thought about them before as a work around for the Treaties. But they are probably a few generations too early as a concept.


You might want to hide. This is going to sting.

I'm not really that big into WW1 history. I know the ANZACs were heavily used in the Middle East I just didn't know if their were large numbers in Northern France and Belgium at the time. No offense intended.

I like the LST idea. Perhaps you could have it as a nominally civilian idea as a government subsidized way for the Government to resupply isolated coastal populations and her Island possessions in the North. I mean that's pretty much what RO/RO's are today.

 

[yulzari]

See remarks.


Sentinels were a great Australian technological accomplishment, but needed the second ergonomics generation refinement to make them effective user friendly platforms. First generation were unacceptable. Valentines were present before Sentinels, WERE the second generation refinement in British hands and could be fitted as is with the howitzer or gun. The A9 or A10 even predate it and would be useful prototypes. The question comes to engines.

Hmm. What large lorry engines were made in Australia at the time? Could GMC diesels be imported?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I like the LST idea. Perhaps you could have it as a nominally civilian idea as a government subsidized way for the Government to resupply isolated coastal populations and her Island possessions in the North. I mean that's pretty much what RO/RO's are today.

Not LST's but rather nice peaceful inter island ferries. Nothing to make the masses nervous or upset the more pacifistic politicos.

 

[Jellico]

I'm not really that big into WW1 history. I know the ANZACs were heavily used in the Middle East I just didn't know if their were large numbers in Northern France and Belgium at the time. No offense intended.

Basically comparable to how the Canadians remember themselves in WWI. By 1918 the 1st AIF were shock troops with all the usual stories about Germans being terrified etc. Very good at "aggressive patrolling". Pioneered combined arms. Babysat the Americans at Hamel. Pointy end of the Hundred Days offensive. They would know as much about close quarter fighting with automatic weapons as anyone in the world at that point.

 

[Father Maryland]

Not LST's but rather nice peaceful inter island ferries. Nothing to make the masses nervous or upset the more pacifistic politicos.

Exactly. I think they could provide a legitimate civilian service.

Sort of similar to my "Start the Flying Doctors program early" where the Australian government would build a number of small airstrips and seaplane/flying boat facilities along the North Coast and in the Pacific Island possessions ostensibly to support the flying doctor program and perhaps as air mail facilities. You're not building future air bases you're building completely civilian peaceful airstrips designed to allow the Australian government to rapidly send doctors and mail and evac critical patients to larger cities for treatment. Build the air strips and sea plane ramps using an Australian equivalent to the American Civilian Conservation Corp composed of unemployed young men desperate for a small paycheck. All completely peaceful in every way. Potentially develop the RO/RO ferries along with the airstrip construction to support construction efforts along the Northern Coast and in the Islands. And perhaps some of that civilian conservation corp provide strict training teaching the civilian young men drill and how to operate together as a unit. Didn't Australia lack a standard railway gauge at the time? Perhaps build the RO/RO ferries to support the coastal transport of trains and goods between ports and railways.

Perhaps as part of a totally different project improve the Australian militia by enlisting more men and providing a small stipend for training and such expenses. Not a lot of course but considering the Depression you could probably entice more of those unemployed young men with a small paycheck. Then when the war comes you already have a significant pool of manpower with at least basic training already done and have a decent pool of semi experienced NCO's.

 

[Father Maryland]

Basically comparable to how the Canadians remember themselves in WWI. By 1918 the 1st AIF were shock troops with all the usual stories about Germans being terrified etc. Very good at "aggressive patrolling". Pioneered combined arms. Babysat the Americans at Hamel. Pointy end of the Hundred Days offensive. They would know as much about close quarter fighting with automatic weapons as anyone in the world at that point.

Fair enough.

The more ya know I suppose.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Exactly. I think they could provide a legitimate civilian service

And if the R.A.N borrows a couple of ferries to run some "disaster relief exercises" well that's just reasonable planning.

 

[Jellico]

Personally I am partial to seaplane tenders. All those cranes and good access at water level.

We forget how much was moved with cranes and muscles rather than RoRo. No trucks to unload to. Perhaps a more specialized tramp steamer is what is needed?

 

[Father Maryland]

Personally I am partial to seaplane tenders. All those cranes and good access at water level.

We forget how much was moved with cranes and muscles rather than RoRo. No trucks to unload to. Perhaps a more specialized tramp steamer is what is needed?

I was actually thinking sea plane tenders. Basically modify a couple of medium/large merchant ships with machine shops,fuel stores. store rooms, accomadations for passengers/aircrew, and places for armories when things get hot. Use them in conjunction with my "Build a series of small airstrips and sea plane ramp along Australi'as Northern coast using CCC type labor and nominally for airmail/ flying doctors/ S&R usage". Have them originally at least nominally belong to the Civilian flying doctor program/ Qantas and have them shuffle along between those airstrips providing support for sea planes and the like. When the war starts modify them further with self defense armament, armories, muinitions stores and the like and have them scurry along the coast supporting and transporting aircraft. By having the needed infrastructure in a mobile package you can shuffle relatively few aircraft across the area and hopefully prevent all of your own planes from getting taken out.

 

[McPherson]

Personally I am partial to seaplane tenders. All those cranes and good access at water level.

We forget how much was moved with cranes and muscles rather than RoRo. No trucks to unload to. Perhaps a more specialized tramp steamer is what is needed?

Thou shalt buy and learn...

One small step to a RoRo.

Also, let us not forget that Australians were pioneers in containerized shipping.

World War II[edit]
During World War II, the Australian Army used containers to help more easily deal with various breaks of gauge in the railroads. These non-stackable containers were about the size of the later 20-foot ISO container and perhaps made mainly of wood.[11][need quotation to verify]

During the same time, the United States Army started to combine items of uniform size, lashing them onto a pallet, unitizing cargo to speed the loading and unloading of transport ships. In 1947 the Transportation Corps developed the Transporter, a rigid, corrugated steel container with a 9,000 lb (4,100 kg) carrying capacity, for shipping household goods of officers in the field. It was 8 ft 6 in (2.59 m) long, 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m), and 6 ft 10 in (2.08 m)" high, with double doors on one end, mounted on skids, and had lifting rings on the top four corners.[12][13] During the Korean War the Transporter was evaluated for handling sensitive military equipment and, proving effective, was approved for broader use. Theft of material and damage to wooden crates convinced the army that steel containers were needed.

 

[Blue cat]

Making SMG's is a job for the local Bicycle manufacturers, not a railway workshop that can be making heavy equipment.

Well with the benefit of hindsight having a fully debugged SMG and ammunition either in widespread service before the war started or at least in limited service and ready to go into mass production once the war started would likely have been helpful. I realize there were likely institutional issues that would have made this difficult in our time line.

I have heard a number of comments over the years about various SMG rounds (not specifically Australian ones) at times not being quite adequate in practice, perhaps a focused pre war trials program might have gotten to the bottom of some of those issues.

 

[Cockroach]

Were there any Australian troops on the Western front in 1918?

***

Ya forgot to mention, commanded by the best Allied General of the war.

 

[Crowbar Six]

Were there any Australian troops on the Western front in 1918? To my knowledge virtually all of the few MP18s produced during the war got sent to the Western Front. It's theoretically possible that an Australian trooper could end up purchasing/trading for/ stealing a MP18 from his British or French counterparts.

I think right after the war ended they started making a MP18 copy in Switzerland (since German production was banned) though I'm not sure how good the sales figures were. More likely the idea of a SMG enters the Australian public conscious during the 1920's when reports start coming in about American Gangsters using the "Chicago Piano" during Prohibition. I'm not sure what Australian gun laws were at the time but in the US Thompson was selling brand new Tommy Guns with a case and a couple free magazines for 20 bucks US through mail order catalogs. Though sales were actually pretty poor partially because 20 bucks was a lot at the time. Perhaps the Australian army (or some sympathetic groups) end up purchasing a handful of "Tommy Guns" and end up playing with them giving them the idea for a better cheaper domestic product. Use the imported Thompson's in trials, training, some small scale war games, and let engineers screw around with them until they can make something better inspired by them.

Thompson had 15000 made by Colt in 1921 and still had stock in 1940. The cost was $200 in 1928. They made the redesigned M1A1 in 1942 for around $70.

 

[Errolwi]

{quote}
Heldenhammer said:
Looks good, but I don't see much need for any sort of armor. Warfare in the Pacific, where I presume most of this war is occuring for the ANZAC lads, makes armor a liability in most cases.

In reality it was often a battle winner for the ANZAC forces (not that there were anything called an ANZAC in the Pacific as they never fought together).

[/QUOTE]

I don't think the NZ land forces ever even had armour attached during their limited operational deployments.
The RNZAF supported Aussie ground forces a lot, but yes, ANZAC wasn't in use (in any theater).

BTW, here are extracts from US Naval war dairies (that involve RNZAF activity) in the Solomons 1945. Useful to see the terms in use on the front line.

RNZAF activity in the Pacific 1945 | Wings Over New Zealand

I'm starting a thread on RNZAF activity as shown in US Naval war dairies. I will only include RNZAF entries, if US or RAAF assets were involved in the activity, they will be included as well. T

rnzaf.proboards.com

 

[McPherson]

Hmm. What large lorry engines were made in Australia at the time? Could GMC diesels be imported?

Holden?

The problem for any Valentine as for the Sentinel, is that of the transmissions. The car engines available could be cobbled together into a power pack, but the machine tooling for a transmissions for what amounts to a 25 tonne bulldozer was non-existent. The Americans could supply the machine tools and a truck transmission (blueprints included) but not before mid 1942. Even for the engine there is a solution. (Buicks.) The alternative is a derated Pratt R1830, but then air-power has priority over armor. If by a miracle the Australians can make enough R1830s, that still leaves the transmission.

How about a Buick Century? (Straight 8 engine.) Junk the car body and use a pair of power trains, left and right for the tank?

 

[marathag]

Case in point that leapt out at me, the Pan Am Clippers. How is that going to work when the Short Empires were made for Imperial service? It is a complete 180 to suddenly go American.

What cost differences between the two? That's of even more important than performance at times, as is delivery times
US had Sikorsky, Boeing and Consolidated marketing flying boats in the '30s

Sikorsky had plans to license their Clipper to the British company that would be reorganized into Folland, that would be a subcontractor thru the War.

If the British were planning to build the S-42, hard to fault Oz for wanting to do the same

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Hmm. What large lorry engines were made in Australia at the time? Could GMC diesels be imported?

I believe they made the Cadillac V8 in Australia as they had intended to use 3 of them in the Sentinel for 330 HP - so I assume they are 110 HP each?

So they could use 2 of them in the Valentine for 220 HP and also use it as a truck engine?

The later Thunderbolt tank was intended to use the engines in a multibank V24 engine format called a Perrier-Cadillac that gave about 400 HP

 

[marathag]

How about a Buick Century? (Straight 8 engine.) Junk the car body and use a pair of power trains, left and right for the tank?

The TD that was the early version of what would be the M18 Hellcat, as the T67 used twin Buick Eights, similar to how Cadillac powered the M5 Light, but had Christie suspension

Only real hangup, is the T67 used the new GM Torque Converter. Note: turret is facing the rear

size comparison

but the Twin Eight powerpack was longer than the aircooled R-975. Since that would allow a more central turret mounting, and the R-975 was already used in other AFV, that was chosen over the Buick powerplants