Rearm the American Infantry for WWII.

Capt Thunderbolt

Question?
Who owns the rights for the ZGB33?
And Bren is a licensed version of the above?
Dominions used the same license?
And the Bren is not actually theirs to sell on?
 

sonofpegasus

AIMEP, and Perfect General's addendum. The BESAL was not a crude gun like the Sten, it was a highly valued engineered LMG comparable to the Bren but faster and cheaper to build. Existing American automotive factories and other Machine shopes could have produced the BESAL in 30-06 calibre by the tens of thousands. Two for every rifle squad perhaps!
 
marathag

marathag

Banned
sonofpegasus said:
AIMEP, and Perfect General's addendum. The BESAL was not a crude gun like the Sten, it was a highly valued engineered LMG comparable to the Bren but faster and cheaper to build. Existing American automotive factories and other Machine shopes could have produced the BESAL in 30-06 calibre by the tens of thousands. Two for every rifle squad perhaps!
Click to expand...
all but for the problem of NIH
 

Capt Thunderbolt

yulzari said:
The rights sold were Empire wide. Hence made in Canada, India and Australia.
Click to expand...
Dominions, technically part of the Empire.
All one legal entity.
Same as Washington treaty applied to whole commonwealth

Bren was made in India till post war.

Bren is not theirs to sell to third parties
 

Cockroach

marathag said:
all but for the problem of NIH
Click to expand...
The bigger problem is that it doesn't look the BESAL was in proper prototype form until March '42. Add time to properly production-ize it, covert it to .30-06 and set up a factory in the US and it probably isn't available in useful numbers before '44. Going with a Bren or Vickers–Berthier derivative (edit: of if really wanting to avoid NIH, the Johnson M1941...) allows things to get moving in '40 or '41, with useful production by mid-'42 to early-'43.
Capt Thunderbolt said:
Bren is not theirs to sell to third parties
Click to expand...
Tis wartime and Zbrojovka Brno is under German control. Thus the poms can do what they want with the Bren (see OTL production in 8mm Mauser for export to China).
 
Last edited:

Capt Thunderbolt

Cockroach said:
see OTL production in 8mm Mauser for export to China
Click to expand...
And who gave aid to China at that time?
Germany!

Cooperation between China and Germany was instrumental in modernizing the industry and the armed forces of the Republic of China between 1926 and 1941. However, intense co-operation lasted only until the start of the Second Sino-Japanese War in 1937.
 

sonofpegasus

In His Video Ian McCollum states that the prototype BESAL was ready by March 1941, the project was then put on the backburner and got stuck in development hell and took a year to get to production standard. ITTL the designs are sent to the USA in mid summer 1941 for production!
 

Cockroach

sonofpegasus said:
In His Video Ian McCollum states that the prototype BESAL was ready by March 1941, the project was then put on the backburner and got stuck in development hell and took a year to get to production standard. ITTL the designs are sent to the USA in mid summer 1941 for production!
Click to expand...
Not sure if Gun-Jesus is right on that point though. Armament Research Services, the mob who provided him with the BESAL to take apart, cite the order for the weapon happening sometime in 1941 and the first prototype as delivered March '42:
The War Office contract for the prototype guns was let to experienced company Birmingham Small Arms (BSA) in 1941. The lead designer was Harry Faulkner, who had already produced the ‘Besa’ Armoured Fighting Vehicle (AFV) machine gun. BSA delivered the first prototype of the new gun by March 1942. This retained a Bren-style cocking handle, but was further simplified in August 1942, as detailed below.
Click to expand...
Looks like one of 'em is wrong and an uncorrected mistatement in the video is just as likely as a typo on the webpage.
 

Blue cat

Capt Thunderbolt said:
Dominions, technically part of the Empire.
All one legal entity.
Same as Washington treaty applied to whole commonwealth

Bren was made in India till post war.

Bren is not theirs to sell to third parties
Click to expand...
I wonder what happened vis a vis the Brens that Canada reportedly made in 7.92x57 for the Chinese ??

Maybe once the war started and Czechoslovakia was already occupied by Nazi Germany no one worried as much about details such as licence payments ?

With 20 /20 hindsight a joint Canadian / American effort to redesign the Bren to use 30/06 would have been nice. Having Canada widely adopt the Garand and the US adpot the Bren would have been helpful IMHO.
 
Last edited:

Father Maryland

Was there ever any attempt to chamber the Bren in 30:06? I know the WW2 attempt to create a MG 42 in 30:06 was problem filled. So were their ever any experiments with a 30:06 Brens? Or even a 30:06 Vickers Berthier?
 

Blue cat

Cockroach said:
The bigger problem is that it doesn't look the BESAL was in proper prototype form until March '42. Add time to properly production-ize it, covert it to .30-06 and set up a factory in the US and it probably isn't available in useful numbers before '44. Going with a Bren or Vickers–Berthier derivative (edit: of if really wanting to avoid NIH, the Johnson M1941...) allows things to get moving in '40 or '41, with useful production by mid-'42 to early-'43.
Tis wartime and Zbrojovka Brno is under German control. Thus the poms can do what they want with the Bren (see OTL production in 8mm Mauser for export to China).
Click to expand...
Well having large numbers of a better LMG by 1944 would have been of some use IMHO..
 

Deleted member 1487

Father Maryland said:
Was there ever any attempt to chamber the Bren in 30:06? I know the WW2 attempt to create a MG 42 in 30:06 was problem filled. So were their ever any experiments with a 30:06 Brens? Or even a 30:06 Vickers Berthier?
Click to expand...
There was, the M41.
 
Jim Smitty

Jim Smitty

Ok my thoughts on this, I'm going with unlimited budget and having everything up to 1945 tech by 1939.

For the standard service rifle, a M1 Garand in .276 Pedersen.
Sub gun, M3 with double stack double fed mags in 9 Para
PDW: M2 with better designed mags
Pistol: Hi-Power in 9 Para
LMG: Winchester Automatic Rifle. In 30-06
GPMG: M1919A6 in 30-06
Flamethrower: M2 Flamethrower
Hand Grenade: No36 Mills Bomb
AT Weapon: M9A1 Bazooka

I would leave mortars alone those were great.
 

Father Maryland

Blue cat said:
I wonder what happened vis a vis the Brens that Canada reportedly made in 7.92x57 for the Chinese ??

Maybe once the war started and Czechoslovakia was already occupied by Nazi Germany no one worried as much about details such as licence payments ?

With 20 /20 hindsight a joint Canadian / American effort to redesign the Bren to use 30/06 would have been nice. Having Canada widely adopt the Garand and the US adpot the Bren would have been helpful IMHO.
Click to expand...

On the other hand imagine the irony of the US effectively paying Nazi Germany a licensing fee for every 30:06 Bren made. Sort of like Imperial Germany paying a fee to Hiram Maxim for every Maxim gun they made during WW1.
 

Blue cat

Father Maryland said:
On the other hand imagine the irony of the US effectively paying Nazi Germany a licensing fee for every 30:06 Bren made. Sort of like Imperial Germany paying a fee to Hiram Maxim for every Maxim gun they made during WW1.
Click to expand...
I wonder if Canada / the commonwealth / China ever had to pay anything re the 7.92x57 mm Brens :). That were apparently made in Canada for China.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top