Rearm the American Infantry for WWII.

[Deleted member 1487]

at the cost of decreased barrier penetration, ap effectiveness, and suppressive effect

Despite all the bitching online the military has no problem with the 5.56. It is the longest serving rifle cartridge other than the 7.62 NATO.

seeing as how a huge part of us doctrine was to use rifles to suppress the enemy position so that other units could get into effective combat range, i'm not willing to give those up without a gpmg at the platoon level, and i'd prefer it at the squad level

Any weapon to suppress. Having an intermediate rifle makes rifle suppression quite a bit easier and more effective. Plus the US already had M1919s at the platoon level. I'd prefer Bren in .30-06 instead though.

 

[CalBear]

This video helps explain why the point of infantry tank defense is not to destroy the tank with a huge AT gun or missile but to degrade the tank's combat capability, which doesn't require direct armor penetration (or even specialized anti-tank weapons).

Soviet motor rifle units carried RPG-7s for specialized grenadiers and then enough RPG-18s (basically the Soviet copy of the M72) to give every other soldier one.

The M2 Gustav literally weighs as much as six or seven M72s. It was very much a platoon- or company-level AT weapon, definitely not comparable to the M72. The newer models are much lighter and more similar in weight and bulk to the RPG, Russian motor rifle units don't have the separate weapons squads and platoons at the platoon and company level, so they incorporate somewhat heavier AT equipment at the squad level. Regardless, the RPG and Gustav are designed for different roles than the M72, so their AT capability should not be compared without proper context.

Sure its heavier, but that wasn't what I was addressing. I was addressing -

No man-portable ATRL has ever been particularly effective against tanks.

That simply isn't true. Now if the the statement was "No man portable AT weapon that weighed less than an unloaded M-1 Garand..." that would be different.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

One can goes off the patrol scatterswith unexploded cans to be cleared later. A dozen grenades dump and half the patrol dies.

This is rocket science at the grunt level.

Gees
I would have had 5 separate booby traps and catch / entrap the whole platoon.

But blowing up the same guys. 5 times over and missing the rest,

sounds like rocket science ?

 

[Rickshaw]

Gees
I would have had 5 separate booby traps and catch / entrap the whole platoon.

But blowing up the same guys. 5 times over and missing the rest,

sounds like rocket science ?

He has a decidely low opinion of the intelligence of "grunts" for some reason. When I was a Grunt, I had a high opinion of my fellow Grunts' intelligence. Want something your not issued? Ask a Grunt to steal it...

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Want something your not issued? Ask a Grunt to steal it...

We don’t steal, we “acquire” things.

My uncle did it when sent to the NT, Australia, during WW2. A Jeep, couple of cylinders, a tent and maybe a kangaroo

I still “Acquire” needs for my dept, when the organisation fails to supply things. I ask, then borrow and then.........Acquire

 

[marathag]

We don’t steal, we “acquire” things.

(Un)Officially it's requisitioning or reappropriating , but you better repaint the numbers on the bumpers, just to be safe

 

[Rickshaw]

(Un)Officially it's requisitioning or reappropriating , but you better repaint the numbers on the bumpers, just to be safe

The old WO who I served with "acquired" a Ford Jeep in Vietnam. He returned to the Task Force with it and was instructed by his CO, "If it has a red 'roo on it by sunset you can keep it." It had a red 'roo on it by sunset. Stencils of 'roos are kept on hand for just such an enventuality. All Australians know the shape by instinct...

 

[TDM]

Any weapon to suppress. Having an intermediate rifle makes rifle suppression quite a bit easier and more effective. Plus the US already had M1919s at the platoon level. I'd prefer Bren in .30-06 instead though.

I think they were referring to longer range coordinated suppressive fire between units outside of combat range where you need heavier bullets that are better at keeping their inertia/impact at longer ranges . Don't get me me wrong lighter rounds means more carried rounds which means in theory more suppressive fire, but there are reasons why SMGS tend to supress when assaulting a position at close range.

(Not that I'm directly comparing 9mm to your stingers here, 9mm are shorter range than you stingers for different reasons and projectile weight isn't one of them)

 

[stephen the barbarian]

snip

doesn't matter,
when they were willing to put their money where the mouth was, each one chose to use their standard service cartridge and willing to take the extra mass
not one of the wundergewehrpatrones being pushed made it past the experimental phase

Despite all the bitching online the military has no problem with the 5.56. It is the longest serving rifle cartridge other than the 7.62 NATO.

oh, you sweet summer child, the us army been trying to toss 5.56 since 1965
the NGSW program that's happening now is aimed at replacing 5.56 with a high powered 6.8 mm round that hits magnum velocity

Any weapon to suppress. Having an intermediate rifle makes rifle suppression quite a bit easier and more effective.

intermediate round can only suppress out to ~600m you need something with more power to suppress positions out to 1200m
it's why the soviets readopted 7.62x54R for the pkm and the dragunov

Plus the US already had M1919s at the platoon level.

no, flat out wrong the m1919 was issued at company level, in the weapons platoon,

I'd prefer Bren in .30-06 instead though.

your wanking is noted

 

[Deleted member 1487]

oh, you sweet summer child, the us army been trying to toss 5.56 since 1965

It hasn't been able to find a superior replacement, which says something about how good of a design it is.

the NGSW program that's happening now is aimed at replacing 5.56 with a high powered 6.8 mm round that hits magnum velocity

Sure, leveraging 21st century technologies to make a 6.8mm Magnum useful and due to the need to be able to fight Class IV body armor at 600m or beyond. And it is trying to, it hasn't succeeded yet; troop trials and approval are coming in the next couple of years and unless it gets an 85% approval rate from troops it will not be accepted. Given that this would be the 4th replacement attempt and the previous 3 failed it is up in the air if the new 6.8mm cartridge/weapon systems will even be adopted.

intermediate round can only suppress out to ~600m you need something with more power to suppress positions out to 1200m
it's why the soviets readopted 7.62x54R for the pkm and the dragunov

7.62 NATO. There is a reason there is a division in labor between the 5.56 and 7.62
The Soviets never unadopted the 7.62x54R, they always had a 2 cartridge standard. The 7.62x39 just replaced the 7.62x25 and the later 5.45mm replaced the 7.62x39. The PK series and Dragunov just replaced the older weapons that filled their roles.

no, flat out wrong the m1919 was issued at company level, in the weapons platoon,

Organizationally held at the company level, issued to platoons in combat.

your wanking is noted

Was that necessary?

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

it's why the soviets readopted 7.62x54R for the pkm and the dragunov

They did not readopt anything.

The PK was the replacement for the SG-43, that replaced the M1910 before that

As the Company MG.

The Soviet motor rifle company had RPD and later RPK as squad guns and PK/PKM as company gun.

The SVD was the plt sniper rifle, replacement for bolt rifle with scope

 

[CalBear]

doesn't matter,
when they were willing to put their money where the mouth was, each one chose to use their standard service cartridge and willing to take the extra mass
not one of the wundergewehrpatrones being pushed made it past the experimental phase


oh, you sweet summer child, the us army been trying to toss 5.56 since 1965
the NGSW program that's happening now is aimed at replacing 5.56 with a high powered 6.8 mm round that hits magnum velocity


intermediate round can only suppress out to ~600m you need something with more power to suppress positions out to 1200m
it's why the soviets readopted 7.62x54R for the pkm and the dragunov

no, flat out wrong the m1919 was issued at company level, in the weapons platoon,

your wanking is noted

Play the ball.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Organizationally held at the company level, issued to platoons in combat.

The Marines yes (with 6 guns at company)
The Army rifle companies, no. Only 2 guns.
(Marshall recommended 3 post Korea).
Airborne and specials have separate organisations

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

intermediate round can only suppress out to ~600m you need something with more power to suppress positions out to 1200m

The British manual states that targets are not to be engaged over 600m, and only very rarely over in exceptional situations.
Operational studies confirmed this.

Soviet manuals similar. Infantry engaged at 600m to keep the commissar.
There is little point issuing a round for beyond this except for handicapping you own with useless weight.

Both GB and US developed LR .30ish ammo to improve SFMG fire. Mk8z and M1 boattail ball.
Same for countries with 6.5mm. Both Sweden and Italy issued 8mm rounds with much more KE than .30ish.

.30 tracer burnt out way before 1200m, and strike is near impossible to observe. Without tripods, M240 is 800m, 1100m on tripod. 1800m “harassing”.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Sure, leveraging 21st century technologies to make a 6.8mm Magnum useful and due to the need to be able to fight Class IV body armor at 600m or beyond. And it is trying to, it hasn't succeeded yet; troop trials and approval are coming in the next couple of years and unless it gets an 85% approval rate from troops it will not be accepted. Given that this would be the 4th replacement attempt and the previous 3 failed it is up in the air if the new 6.8mm cartridge/weapon systems will even be adopted.

Milley already tried to dump 5.56 with 7.62 for Infantry. Didn’t last long. He hadn’t learnt a thing from Vietnam that 7.62mm was a liability against intermediate rounds, mainly M43 !!

This is not going to make the 6.8mm guys with tungsten rounds happy.

Chinese Level IV vs Tungsten .338

As a Buffman patreon supporter, I got an early preview to his upcoming .338 Tungsten AP test. The video is currently unlisted, but should be appearing soon. In the meantime, the results were very surprising...

forums.delphiforums.com

From: gatnerd
29-Sep
As a Buffman patreon supporter, I got an early preview to his upcoming .338 Tungsten AP test.
The video is currently unlisted, but should be appearing soon.

“In the meantime, the results were very surprising.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I am somewhat familiar with the RUGER.

since that is an image that I have also cited from from Springfield Arsenal


=========================================================


As I have noted, the gun as designed and field tested in `1942 was rejected as was for being milled instead of stamped and the extra kilogram of weight was just an excuse to further mask Army Ordnance industrial management incompetence of the program (Not made by Colt. Goddamned politics.).
.

Just a suggestion and very unlikely but theoretically possible.

1942 initial after action reports flag up the faults with the BAR as an LMG. In order to get a proper LMG in production quickly the US obtains a production licence for the British BESAL simplified LMG.

 

[sonofpegasus]

How about the British place an order in the US for the BESAL in 1941 and the US take them over after Pearl Harbour.

 

[Rickshaw]

How about the British place an order in the US for the BESAL in 1941 and the US take them over after Pearl Harbour.

I think the point of the BESAL was that it was meant to be produced in the UK as a last resort in case of Seelowe succeeding and the Germans getting a shore...

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I think the point of the BESAL was that it was meant to be produced in the UK as a last resort in case of Seelowe succeeding and the Germans getting a shore...

If they were going to do that - I think it would make more sense to go for the BREN

Perhaps have the British stand up BREN gun production in the US like they did for the P14 rifle in WW1 and as British and Commonwealth production ramps up the US 'leverages' the design like they did for the M1917 Enfield.

Especially if both nations had adopted the .276 during the 30s (Britain might very well have adopted the Vickers-Pederson rifle had the US adopted the round - and i would expect the BREN to have been chambered for that round).

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I think the point of the BESAL was that it was meant to be produced in the UK as a last resort in case of Seelowe succeeding and the Germans getting a shore...

No, it was designed in case the Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield (the only factory building it at the time) was bombed. It was to be built in ordinary machine shops not specialist arms factories so the components were designed to have as few complicated cuts made to them as was possible.