Realistic ways of the United States annexing Canada

As to why in her hour of triumph Germany would feel a need to offend the US and give hope for the future to Great Britain and other currently defeated foes...

Since bluster, overreaching, and ASB diplomatic gestures are, like, so totally not what the Kaiserreich was all about . . .
 
As to why in her hour of triumph Germany would feel a need to offend the US and give hope for the future to Great Britain and other currently defeated foes...

Actually, the idea of the Germans acting like dicks in diplomacy is the most plausible part to me.
 
Faeelin, to the point of making demands they know they'll never get, leaving them with egg on their face?

If the German navy is reduced to a point of severe inferiority to the US navy then there isn't the slightest chance of being able to invade Canada and given that British naval construction ability was superior I seriously doubt Germany is getting much in the way of reparations or territory from the UK.


Meanwhile the British will not and can not sell Canada, Canada will not agree to be sold, the US will have no reason to buy Canada, least of all after Wilson's bumbling misadventures on the other border with Mexico and the US doesn't have the ability to take Canada by force.
 
Meanwhile the British will not and can not sell Canada, Canada will not agree to be sold, the US will have no reason to buy Canada
Hey - I think Dirk Pitt would disagree. so would a certain ex secret Agent.
 
Guys, it's pretty damn ASB to have Quebec join the American Revolution. We've been over this I don't know how many times now.

Well, it's not like the PoD has to be at the revolution itself. I'm contemplating a TL where Guy Carleton dies before becoming Governor of Canada, hence the Quebec Act never passes, hence Quebec rebels. What's the problem with that?
 
I just don't see how this could happen in a WW1 type TL.

I could see the UK being forced to sell some of it's islands to the US. But there is no way the Canadians would allow themselves to be sold. For one they're too proud people to just sit around and allow the Germans to decide their future. I see them refusing any such demands, and digging in for a long fight. I'd bet the Canadians would have a good chance of defending their nation against any German landings. And at worst the Canadians could keep falling back until the Germans run out of supplies. While the Canadians would be well supplied by their own factories and ones in the US. Remember Canada is a huge country, not some micro-European state.

Also I'd guess the US would rapidly grow it's army/navy the moment German announces it's plan to invade Canada. Even if the troops aren't that good (National Guard/ new trainees and such) a few groups of 10,000 man forces sitting near the border would force the Germans to deploy troops to watch them. Thereby taking forces away from the units fighting the Canadians.
 
What if the 1918 Flu epidemic was far, far worse and Canada is hit especially hard...to the point of a breakdown of government? If the United States isn't in a pickle itself, perhaps the surviving Canadians would feel differently about a United North America?
 
WI: Parliament, in dire need of money, tries to tax the Hudson Bay Corporation
(in clear violation of their charter) during the ARW; the board of governors in
London reluctantly agree, but the employees on this side of the pond revolt
and join cause with the rebels.
 
I'd say a very good PoD for the United States and Canada becoming one country is probably no American Revolution (so they remain united and the Loyalists remain dispersed). For one that involves annexation, have a United States policy to flood Canada with American settlers while keeping them loyal to the states. That way when revolutions and wars against the U.S. break out there's far more local activism and participation against the British, rather than on their side.
 
A number of PODs could have led to Canada being occupied in the War of independence.

1. Ethan Allen's blown attack on Montreal in Sept 1775 coming off as planned means the Americans can march on Quebec a couple months early.

2. Capture HMS Lizard. This ship aided in the defense of Quebec by landing sailors and marines as well as cannon(one of which killed General Montgomery and doomed the American assault).

3. Arnold attacking Nova Scotia in 1775 instead of marching through Maine could've put him at the gates of Halifax. This POD works well with a successful assault on Montreal.

4. A more successful Eddy's Rebellion is a possibility as he nearly took Fort Cumberland, but the best chance in Nova Scotia is with an earlier assault led by Benedict Arnold.

5. After the Surrender at Saratoga the Continental Congress tried to put together an expedition against Canada during the winter 1777-78 before the British could reinforce Quebec but was unable to gather the necessary supplies. A good POD could be a successful assault on Ticonderoga by Benjamin Lincoln. Such an assault would leave Canada even more vulnerable and trap Burgoyne a month early enabling Congress to get started early.
 
How is napoleon going to defeat the the UK (and occupy it) he had already bit of more then he can chew plus to beat the uk you must beat the royal navy. From what i can remember (i maybe wrong) Napoleon was never a very good naval tactician.

You don't have to be a great naval tactician to get lucky. All you need is a big storm to soften up the RN and maybe Nelson not in command and voila! Command of the channel for the few weeks Nappy needs to take London.
 
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A number of PODs could have led to Canada being occupied in the War of independence.

1. Ethan Allen's blown attack on Montreal in Sept 1775 coming off as planned means the Americans can march on Quebec a couple months early.

2. Capture HMS Lizard. This ship aided in the defense of Quebec by landing sailors and marines as well as cannon(one of which killed General Montgomery and doomed the American assault).

3. Arnold attacking Nova Scotia in 1775 instead of marching through Maine could've put him at the gates of Halifax. This POD works well with a successful assault on Montreal.

4. A more successful Eddy's Rebellion is a possibility as he nearly took Fort Cumberland, but the best chance in Nova Scotia is with an earlier assault led by Benedict Arnold.

5. After the Surrender at Saratoga the Continental Congress tried to put together an expedition against Canada during the winter 1777-78 before the British could reinforce Quebec but was unable to gather the necessary supplies. A good POD could be a successful assault on Ticonderoga by Benjamin Lincoln. Such an assault would leave Canada even more vulnerable and trap Burgoyne a month early enabling Congress to get started early.

I wonder though if any of those things succed what stops the majority of the canadians to rebel against the americans?

there were a few revolts in canda duringthe revolution but is that enough to get the people up north on their side?

and further could a deal be ironed out to put them into succesful union?

maybe i shuld start a timeline....
 

Eurofed

Banned
Well, it's not like the PoD has to be at the revolution itself. I'm contemplating a TL where Guy Carleton dies before becoming Governor of Canada, hence the Quebec Act never passes, hence Quebec rebels. What's the problem with that?

In my experience, some Canuck nationalists would never admit a PoD is plausible by which Canada willingly joins the USA, not even if you write twelve legions of angels descending on Ottawa to command the union. Just ignore their biased lamentations. A PoD by which the Quebec Act fails or even better turns into a repressive version is probably the better PoD there is to bring Canada in the American Revolution, and that's probably the most likely and smoothest POD ever to unite Canada and the USA. The earlier the union happens, the most likely and politically the smoothest to accomplish.
 
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Well, it's not like the PoD has to be at the revolution itself. I'm contemplating a TL where Guy Carleton dies before becoming Governor of Canada, hence the Quebec Act never passes, hence Quebec rebels. What's the problem with that?

It's not even about the Quebec Act or even the Intolerable Acts, it simply boils down to religious persecution. Quebec was and still is rather Catholic and the British/Thirteen Colonies were highly Protestant. Quebec saw no use in joining a Revolution where the people they were joining with actively targeted Catholics and had no love for them. You see, this is how it was for Quebec; you can either keep the current Anglophone ruler which is loosely tolerant of your religion, language, laws and culture or you could go with a new Anglophone ruler that was not tolerant of your religion, language, laws and culture.

In my experience, some Canuck nationalists would never admit a PoD is plausible by which Canada willingly joins the USA, not even if you write twelve legions of angels descending on Ottawa to command the union. Just ignore their biased lamentations. A PoD by which the Quebec Act fails or even better turns into a repressive version is probably the better PoD there is to bring Canada in the American Revolution, and that's probably the most likely and smoothest POD ever to unite Canada and the USA. The earlier the union happens, the most likely and politically the smoothest to accomplish.

Well it's not really plausible any time before 1939 unless you have some serious nearly ASB shifts in British policy and terrible terrible luck. The only way your POD would work is if Quebec's language, religion, laws and culture are enshrined in the US Constitution. Otherwise, Quebec might rebel alongside the Thirteen Colonies but would more than likely refrain from joining them.

What if the 1918 Flu epidemic was far, far worse and Canada is hit especially hard...to the point of a breakdown of government? If the United States isn't in a pickle itself, perhaps the surviving Canadians would feel differently about a United North America?

That's somewhat possible, except for the following which I see as rather large obstacles:

1. Canada heading into and coming out of WWI was still incredibly pro-British.

2. Because of Canada's successes in WWI, there was a surge in a feeling of national unity and the start of a true Canadian identity. It's going to be pretty hard to break that in a year coming off such a high.

I'd say a very good PoD for the United States and Canada becoming one country is probably no American Revolution (so they remain united and the Loyalists remain dispersed). For one that involves annexation, have a United States policy to flood Canada with American settlers while keeping them loyal to the states. That way when revolutions and wars against the U.S. break out there's far more local activism and participation against the British, rather than on their side.

This is by far the most plausible and realistic PoD I've seen in this thread so far. Kudos.
 
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Eurofed

Banned
It's not even about the Quebec Act or even the Intolerable Acts, it simply boils down to religious persecution. Quebec was and still is rather Catholic and the British/Thirteen Colonies were highly Protestant. Quebec saw no use in joining a Revolution where the people they were joining with actively targeted Catholics and had no love for them. You see, this is how it was for Quebec; you can either keep the current Anglophone ruler which is loosely tolerant of your religion, language, laws and culture or you could go with a new Anglophone ruler that was not tolerant of your religion, language, laws and culture.

Sigh. Upteenth time I have to counter the foolish clichè in this board that there were anti-Catholic or anti-French pogroms in the 13 colonies. :(:mad:

There was no "intolerance" whatsoever of French language and culture in 18th and 19th century America. Back then, French was the highly valued and respected second language of educated elites and the international language of culture throughout Europe and America alike, just like English after 1945. Intolerance against Catholics was much less strong and widespread than you think. Catholics were elected to the Continental Congress and to the Constitutional Convention, you may see their signatures in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Both the US Constitution and the state constitutions gave full equality and civil rights to Catholics and French-speakers, and those measures were passed with little controversy. There is no historic record of significant anti-Catholic grassroots harassment or mob violence in 1770s-1780s America.

The 1787 Constitution would have given Quebec complete freedom to legislate to establish the Catholic Church (the 1st Amendment didn't apply to the states till the 14th Amendment, and there were established chirches in the 13 states till the 1830s), protect French language, and establish the civil code. Respect for state rights was so deep in American public opinion that unless Quebec had actively discriminated against Protestants and English-speakers, nobody in the other states would have questioned the right of Quebeckers to manage their own state as they seemed best.

The Founding Fathers were highly interested in Canada joing their ranks: during the Revolution they wrote open invitations to do so, and after it, Canada was pre-approved for membership in the AoC.

The American system would have granted Quebec more equality and autonomy for their religion, language, law system, and culture, not to mention more political freedom and self-rule, than British colonial administration. That's an unquestionable fact.

Well it's not really plausible any time before 1939 unless you have some serious nearly ASB shifts in British policy and terrible terrible luck.

Well, Britain did lose the ARW, and if Quebec had joined the revolution, it would have lost just the same, in all likelihood quicker and more decisively.

The only way your POD would work is if Quebec's language, religion, laws and culture are enshrined in the US Constitution. Otherwise, Quebec might rebel alongside the Thirteen Colonies but would more than likely refrain from joining them.

Well, since Quebec representatives shall be among the Framers, it is indeed likely that a couple clausles shall be added to the Constitution to state that the Federal Government shall not interfere with the "domestic institutions" of the states (the Tenth Amendment actually shall make it unnecessary anyway), nor establish a national official language (the 1st Amendment already forbids to create a national church). The other states shall have little trouble with them, they fit well with the spirit and framework of the constitution. Nothing more is necessary, the states were already free to legislate to create an established church, an official language, and adopt the French civil law system.
 
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This one. (It had trains. I like trains.)
It was also retconned in the later books. (Especially clear in one of the latest ones, where it's extremely obvious how much Canada is an independent nation.)

Really, Dirk Pitt is a load of crap. It's overly patriotic in that stupid over the top American way, and is generally not very well written either. At this point it's deteriorated into a Tom Clancy style formulaic writing.
 
If Canada did join the US through either the Revolutionary War or the War of 1812, would the cultural and language difference of Quebec (that is, French) have lead it to decide to secede during the Civil War, citing state's rights? And, if they did secede and join the Confederacy, would states like Indiana and Ohio feel squeezed from the north and the south and choose a different stance during the war?
Assuming Canada did join, and then decide to secede during the Civil War, there is no garentee that they would have joined the CSA... NY tried to secede to form a third republic so that they could contiue having comerce with both sides... The only reason they didn't was that the US found out and sent in the army to occupy NYC (and I think Albany, too) for the remainder of the war.
 
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